Pilots Engaged in Small Talk Before Botched Jet Takeoff

ctab5060X said:
Here is something else to chew on Doug..

Not sure about PSA, but at 9E, our Flaps 8 V-speeds have V1=VR on all but a few speed cards. Even the ones that are different are only a 1 knot increase over V1. Basically a post V1 abort would also be a post VR abort...:crazy:
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Same way on some conditions on the 757/767.

Lots of folks don't understand exactly what V1 truly is and that if you decide to abort AT V1, by the time you react including continued acceleration of the aircraft, you could easily find yourself 5-10 knots above the V1 speed, at rotation speed and your balanced field length assurances are far, far out the window.
 
IIRC, PSA has speed cards as a backup, but the numbers for the bugs are from ACARS and there is a difference.
 
The thing that stands out to me most on the transcript is the actions and leadership of the Captain post crash. In charge, decisive, calm, and commanding.

Oh, wait...
 
ctab5060X said:
If you notice, there is a discrepancy with the flap setting in the transcript...

As far as performance, it depends... weather, elevation, loads, etc. Generally flaps 20 will give you a shorter takeoff roll (CRW is 6300') as the V-speeds are generally lower (9E is about 10 knts lower on V1 for 20 over 8) than for flaps 8.
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Yes, I realize more flaps usually means a shorter roll with lower V speeds but is there an obstacle that would require 20? We used to go into CRW a long time ago in the 737-200 and we had multiple flap choices (1, 5 or 15 and maybe even 25.. it's been a while) but ALL would get us off the runway legally.

But once again we see the dangers of aborting at/near V1. And CRW is NOT an airport where one wants to botch a reject. YEARS ago (1959) Capital had a Connie go down the hill BACKWARDs after a botched landing.
 
Hindsight is 20/20 on the abort, as they obviously misreacted.

And, why couldnt you take of a CRJ with flaps 8? I guess im not familiar with their systems.
 
Crockrocket94 said:
And, why couldnt you take of a CRJ with flaps 8? I guess im not familiar with their systems.
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You can... if conditions permit.

CRW probably is probably a flaps 20 airport and not a flaps 8 airport for either obstacle clearance or available accelerate stop distance.
 
ctab5060X said:
You can... if conditions permit.

CRW probably is probably a flaps 20 airport and not a flaps 8 airport for either obstacle clearance or available accelerate stop distance.
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I'll bet a round of drinks that CRW is a field length not on obstacle airport if flaps 20 is the "required" setting. :)
 
Jshutt64 said:
I sure hope the media doesn't get a hold of this gem.
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problem is they will, and the pilots will get the same treatment as the JFK tower controller.

The media just messes things up. Not that these two guys were professional at all, but the media will make them out to be feared. That's the scare tactics.

Good luck to them getting a job.
 
Lol, everybody acts like this stuff isn't happening every day. I bet there isn't a two pilot crew in the world that hasn't chatted with eachother at inappropriate times.

That said, in life, timing is everything. These guys didn't exactly time their conversation right, and they let their BS stories interfere with their flying.
 
ppragman said:
Lol, everybody acts like this stuff isn't happening every day. I bet there isn't a two pilot crew in the world that hasn't chatted with eachother at inappropriate times.
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And people love to watch the TV medical shows and what goes on in the operating room? Is all conversation specifically and limited to about where to and what to cut? Nah! but that is just someone with a knife carving away in your guts.

But we're ta'kin' airplanes here Jeb... them thangs that DEEfy gravity. ;)
 
v1valarob said:
That transcript is not good for anyone.

I cant believe he straight up confessed on the CVR about what happened.
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It's possible that the "confession" was possibly a shock reaction. I mean, he just had a very stressful event just occur. Who knows? I haven't heard the CVR, so I can't say for sure; just throwing on the table a real human reaction possibility to an event like this..

You never really will know how you will react in a situation like this, until you encounter it yourself.
 
mikecweb said:
Why?
Nothing in that transcript showed that either of them deserved their job.
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Nothing in the transcript indicated that they are deserving of having their employment terminated, either. It seems like a simple case of needing retraining, as far as I'm concerned. Based on the evidence here, there is no reason to believe that these pilots are incapable of handling their jobs properly.

As a lesson to everyone else, remember not to make phone calls in the cockpit while the CVR is still running.
 
Monday quarterbacking is a....... Amazing what comes out with a group of pilots (hypercritial and selfish by nature) when things go wrong..... Guess this could never happen to anyone else eh? And we all would handle the situation perfectly if presented with it? :(
 
meyers9163 said:
Monday quarterbacking is a....... Amazing what comes out with a group of pilots (hypercritial and selfish by nature) when things go wrong..... Guess this could never happen to anyone else eh? And we all would handle the situation perfectly if presented with it? :(
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Which is why I posted what I did.
 
MikeD said:
Which is why I posted what I did.
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I appreciate it.... I think we all need to remember something could easily happen on our next flight..... We all hope we would deal with it properly.... But certain people/groups could always find something you did wrong even if you did everything right (to the T).
 
MikeD said:
It's possible that the "confession" was possibly a shock reaction. I mean, he just had a very stressful event just occur. Who knows? I haven't heard the CVR, so I can't say for sure; just throwing on the table a real human reaction possibility to an event like this..

You never really will know how you will react in a situation like this, until you encounter it yourself.
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1, He was in shock. He has a bout a gallon of adrenlin in his system. He nearly just killed himself and 30 others. He knows his career is serious jepordy.

2 He knows that the FDR will show exactly what happened, so why try to sugarcoat it?


I'm not familiar 100% with their specific sterile cockpit procedures but, looking at the transscript it appears that most of the idle chit chat was either before engine start, or while sitting still waiting for their EDCT release.
 
meyers9163 said:
I appreciate it.... I think we all need to remember something could easily happen on our next flight..... We all hope we would deal with it properly....
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True. And even the best amount of training will still never prepare us for the shock, surprise, disbelief, fear (of many things), anger, and a host of other emotions that all come like like a whirlwind when something of this magnitude occurs, especially in the immediate moments following it. The people you would think would react one way, react differently, and vice versa. It's very interesting and sobering at the same time, coming upon pilot/crew from an accident in the immediate aftermath, and seeing these reactions firsthand. It surprised me, and has each time; for different reasons.

But certain people/groups could always find something you did wrong even if you did everything right (to the T).
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An unfortunate portion of our profession that we can never fully get rid of. You could also modify it to say too : "......certain people/groups (talking non-investigative here, referring to peer or other groups) that make it their mission to find things you did wrong, even if you did everything right. And not for the purpose of furthering safety, but for the purpose of making themselves look/feel better than you."
 
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