Logging PIC vs Acting as PIC

J

jkca22

Well-Known Member
I've read some general posts about this but am still having trouble applying the regulations to a particular situation.

If I have a private pilot's license (multi-engine rated, but no high altitude endorsement, no complex endorsement, and no instrument rating) is there any way that I can log PIC time when sitting in the right seat of a King Air 90 (no type rating needed for this aircraft)? The guy in the left seat is not a current CFI/MEI, and is acting as PIC but not logging the time. And the aircraft is flying IFR.

If I have a high altitude endorsement and a complex endorsement, does that change anything?

Apparently it comes down to "logging PIC" versus actually "acting as PIC."

Thanks
 
If you have a high altitude endorsement and complex endorsement you can log PIC time for all the time that you are the sole manipulator of the controls. However, a private pilot can not act as PIC for compensation and flight time is compensation... good luck paying the pro-rata share of the expenses of operating a King Air. You may just have to enjoy the experience, learn a lot but not log it.

It is unfortunate that the other pilot is not a current MEI (or even CFI-I), you would be able to log it as dual given (assuming he actually provided some instruction.)
 
You may log all the time you are the "sole manipulator of the flight controls" as PIC so long as it is determined before the flight that the person with the endorsements is named the "acting PIC" for the flight and you are "rated" for the class, or type if required, of aircraft you are flying. You do not need endorsements to "log" PIC. You do, however, need them to "act" as PIC.

The term "rating" is basically defined as what appears on your Pilot Certificate and does not include endorsements.
 
Maurus said:
You may log all the time you are the "sole manipulator of the flight controls" as PIC so long as it is determined before the flight that the person with the endorsements is named the "acting PIC" for the flight. You do not need endorsements to "log" PIC. You do, however, need them to "act" as PIC.
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Ah... its been a long time since I opened this part of the FAR/AIM. Thanks for the correction.
 
SpiraMirabilis said:
If you have a high altitude endorsement and complex endorsement you can log PIC time for all the time that you are the sole manipulator of the controls. However, a private pilot can not act as PIC for compensation and flight time is compensation... good luck paying the pro-rata share of the expenses of operating a King Air. You may just have to enjoy the experience, learn a lot but not log it.

It is unfortunate that the other pilot is not a current MEI, you would be able to log it as dual given (assuming he actually provided some instruction.)
Click to expand...

Not quite, the regs say that you can log PIC when you are sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which you are rated. Nowhere in the regs does it say that endorsements are ratings they are simply endorsements and are only required to act as PIC. Therefore, in the case presented above the OP would be able to log PIC becaus he is multi-engine rated and is the sole manipulator.

Now if it is a King Air 350 (which is over 12,500 lbs) then a type rating is required and that person cannot log PIC without the type rating.

Now the original poster cannot act as PIC without having the high altitude and complex and high performance endorsements, but he can log PIC.

The appropriate regulation for those who are interested is FAR 61.51(e)
 
jkca22 said:
I've read some general posts about this but am still having trouble applying the regulations to a particular situation.
Click to expand...

I find the best way to under stand "acting" as PIC vs loging PIC, is to replace the term acting with being.

To be PIC you must have all the endorsments as well as the appropriate catagory and class certificate.

If you are not being the PIC, but still hold the catagory and class you may LOG all the time you are actually flying the airplane. You don't need any endorsements at all.
 
Joe Gremlin said:
Prove it. Because I see nothing in 61.51 that would prevent logging of PIC by OP while sole manipulator of the controls given the information provided.
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He made no mention of being the sole manipulator of the controls. He asked if he could log PIC by the sole fact that the true PIC wasn't logging it.

The guy in the left seat is not a current CFI/MEI, and is acting as PIC but not logging the time
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So, if the situation is EXACTLY as he described it; him sitting there in the right seat like a bump on a log. He could have a space shuttle type rating, but in this particular case the answer is and always will be no.
 
I am talking about actually being the sole manipulator of the controls. And actually I guess since the person who I'm talking about (it's not actually me getting to ride in the King Air, but someone I know) has a multi-rating then he has a complex endorsement. Although it appears that doesn't matter anyway.
 
TFaudree_ERAU said:
Everyone else felt the need to beat around the bush and rattle off the FARs.
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I'm having difficulty understanding this piece. How does one answer a regulatory question without referring to the regulations? "Believe me, I'm some guy on the Internet"? :dunno:

jcks, to repeat what others have said (as as the FAR does say),

==============================
A ... private pilot may log pilot in command flight time for flights-

...When the pilot is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated
==============================

Add to that that an endorsement is not a "rating" (ratings appear on the back of your pilot certificate under the word "Ratings") and I think you should have your answer.
 
SpiraMirabilis said:
However, a private pilot can not act as PIC for compensation and flight time is compensation... good luck paying the pro-rata share of the expenses of operating a King Air. You may just have to enjoy the experience, learn a lot but not log it.
Click to expand...

He's not acting as PIC, the other pilot is. He's logging PIC time on the basis of 61.51. Totally legit.
 
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