Trust and Verify???

meyers9163

meyers9163

Well-Known Member
So had an odd situation the other day leaving KCAK.... We are scheduled to go into PHL and there was a report that there was an EDC program going on in PHL. However when our clerance popped up I asked the controller about such a program and he stated all he showed was the normal call for release into Philly.... Here it is around 6pm and our orginal departure time was quickly approaching. We had told paxs to expect about a 7:30pm departure due to dispatch informing us of a EDC program....

Needless to say we ask company and load up our paxs in hope of getting onto PHL and back home ASAP.... It is day 4 and get home leg :)! As we load and go to de-ice I informed ground we would be ready to taxi in a moment for PHL.... He informs me apparently he had been trying to reach me for the past 10 minutes (which is weird as he was up and active and never said a word, and de-ice only took 5 minutes) and there was going to be about 90 delay before we could go to PHL.... If we wanted to contact company and see if they can pull strings through CLE center....

At this point if we took a 90 minute delay, only 8 paxs would make their final destinations and the CA informed dispatch if this were the case we are turning around and letting others off (they were not happy about this, but Captain Authority seems to have won this battle). They agreed but said to hold on and they would try to work on something....

About 5 minutes later we get a call from our dispatcher whom told us to tell ground we have a wheels up time in 1 minute and to tell them to "Trust and Verify." The Captain whom has been with our Company 16 years looked totally lost on this... He inquire to ground by saying, "Do not laugh at me, but I have been told to tell you to Trust and Verify our release into PHL." The ground controlled paused, responded "That's a new one to me."

Another 3-4 minutes went by and dispatch appeared to have called CLE center whom called CAK and informed us, "The aviation gods are on your side today, taxi to Runway 1 for an immediate departure."

So my question is how many of you know about such a program??? Is this common? Dispatch seem to imply this happens from time to time... My captain and the controllers in CAK seem completely lost. I did not know if it was just them putting on a show trying to not show others whom are monitoring a way around things or what exactly.... But it did seem like an odd situation.....
 
I never heard of it. At least not in those terms. There used to be a lot of horse trading that went on at Central Flow (now called the Air Traffic Control System Command Center... and I suppose the horse trading still goes on). The result was that you'd get a call at ground control from someone that was given a massive delay saying that an update was on the way and that they'd be ready to start and taxi whenever we got the updated EDCT. Lo and behold, an update usually came shortly afterward and off they went. They never said anything like, "trust and verify" though.
 
I've actually heard of it, in those terms. In a briefing item a few months ago I skimmed over something that mandates exactly what you described here. Granted, because I don't work in a tower - I really didn't read it that carefully =)

I can't remember the specifics, but it covered aircraft that had an EDCT imposed after they have de-iced. Trust. Verified. De-iced. Those three words I remember clearly though.

What I took from it: Trust that the operators will de-ice in accordance with departure times that have been verified (via ops/dispatch) and if they have de-iced, they are going.

I can try to scrounge up the actual text if you'd like. Basically it read to me as the operators are to de-ice in "good faith" and as such we do everthing possible to make sure they don't miss the holdover and have to de-ice again.
 
trust and verify is actually in the 7110.65, just to lazy to look up where....basically if an air carrier gives you an EDCT that is different from the one you have, you should not delay his flight because of this.

someone that isn't lazy can look it up and post the reference here.

I don't believe it is about de-icing, but just about EDCTs in general....sometimes carriers get updated EDCTs before we get them and we don't need to be delaying them to verify that their EDCT is correct and ours is not.
 
"(Trust & Verify) EDCTs are revised by Air Carriers and Traffic Management for changing conditions en route or at affected airport(s). Terminal controllers' use of aircraft reported EDCT for departure sequencing should be verified with the appropriate TMU prior to departure if this can be accomplished without the aircraft incurring delay beyond the EDCT reported by the aircraft. The preferred method for verification is the Flight Schedule Monitor (FSM). If the EDCT cannot be verified without incurring additional delay, the aircraft should be released based on the pilot reported EDCT. The aircraft operator is responsible for operating in a manner consistent to meet the EDCT."
 
basically trust and verify means that the carrier was issued an EDCT that is not the same that ATC has for the aircraft. the different time could've come from TMU (which is not ATC). so if told to "trust and verify", then ATC will allow the aircraft to depart based on TRUST, however ATC will attempt to VERIFY the conflicting time with the originating TMU. if the aircraft is next in line for departure and ATC still hasn't verified the EDCT time then the aircraft will be released.

it's a game of "chicken" if your lying or a game of "i have connections so just trust me".

here's the ATC reg:
7110.65 4-3-4-d
d. When expect departure clearance times (EDCT) are assigned through traffic management programs, the departure terminal must, to the extent possible, plan ground movement of aircraft destined to the affected airport(s) so that flights are sequenced to depart no earlier than 5 minutes before, and no later than 5 minutes after the EDCT. Do not release aircraft on their assigned EDCT if a ground stop (GS) applicable to that aircraft is in effect, unless approval has been received from the originator of the GS.
1. If an aircraft has begun to taxi or requests taxi in a manner consistent with meeting the EDCT, the aircraft shall be released. Additional coordination is not required.
2. If an aircraft requests taxi or clearance for departure inconsistent with meeting the EDCT window, ask the pilot to verify the EDCT.
(a) If the pilot's EDCT is the same as the FAA EDCT, the aircraft is released consistent with the EDCT.
(b) If the pilot's EDCT is not the same as the FAA EDCT, refer to Trust and Verify Note below.
3. If an aircraft requests taxi too late to meet the EDCT, contact the ATCSCC through the appropriate TMU.
NOTE-
(Trust & Verify) EDCTs are revised by Air Carriers and Traffic Management for changing conditions en route or at affected airport(s). Terminal controllers' use of aircraft reported EDCT for departure sequencing should be verified with the appropriate TMU prior to departure if this can be accomplished without the aircraft incurring delay beyond the EDCT reported by the aircraft. The preferred method for verification is the Flight Schedule Monitor (FSM). If the EDCT cannot be verified without incurring additional delay, the aircraft should be released based on the pilot reported EDCT. The aircraft operator is responsible for operating in a manner consistent to meet the EDCT.
 
Interesting.

I believe Ronald Reagan coined the "Trust but Verify" term relating to nuclear disarmament inspection talks with the Soviets.

And he fired the ATCs.
 
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