Deal made on hours of training for co-pilots

[derg]

Still sounds like the harbinger of doom: The Multi Crew Pilot License.

Once that puppy is unleashed, we'll be looking at the sordidly disgusting compensation in 2010 as the "Good Old Days".

 

[jspeed87]

Why so instead of being paid your first year on the job you actually have to pay to sit in the jumpseat and gain "experience"? Thats pretty much what Gulfstream was doing. "Here, sit and watch but DONT TOUCH!"



Yeah, I am sort of new to all this. Not currently in the profession, working my way towards it. Only knowledge I have is from the couple years of working towards my ratings.

Not pay for training but like an internship. It's only here in the US that the dream of flying for an airline is a long road of paying your dues for peanuts only to earn more peanuts. FAA should start cadet/internship programs to commercial pilots who wish to fly for an airline.

 

[crfguy51]

I'd rather see a hard 1500 hour minimum than an 800 hour minimum with icing (?!?) and 'crew' experience requirements. This will turn into a mess.

 

[Boris Badenov]

Not pay for training but like an internship. It's only here in the US that the dream of flying for an airline is a long road of paying your dues for peanuts only to earn more peanuts. FAA should start cadet/internship programs to commercial pilots who wish to fly for an airline.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the whole idea of a two person cockpit is that the person sitting on the right side isn't a passenger or a student pilot.

 

[Xiph]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the whole idea of a two person cockpit is that the person sitting on the right side isn't a passenger or a student pilot.

I think he's talking about the sort of ab-initio programs one sees overseas. I'm fine with those, as long as they don't devolve to the MPL. Crew training is great, and necessary, but you really need to be able to fly an airplane yourself.

 

[Boris Badenov]

I think he's talking about the sort of ab-initio programs one sees overseas. I'm fine with those, as long as they don't devolve to the MPL. Crew training is great, and necessary, but you really need to be able to fly an airplane yourself.

*shrug*. To each their own, of course, but in my estimation, if you haven't been PIC as a guy who has to get there as opposed to a guy who can sit it out, you're not a "Co-Captain", you're a seatwarmer/gearswinger/etc. I'm not convinced that the type of equipment you fly as a PIC matters all that much, just that being the guy in whose lap the buck stops changes your perspective on Command in a way that all the technical expertise and StickNRudder in the world can't and won't. Just an opinion, we've all got one.

 

[bksslc]

Sounds like the NTSB is going to get awful busy with this new flight in icing conditions rule.

 

[CFIscare]

*shrug*. To each their own, of course, but in my estimation, if you haven't been PIC as a guy who has to get there as opposed to a guy who can sit it out, you're not a "Co-Captain", you're a seatwarmer/gearswinger/etc. I'm not convinced that the type of equipment you fly as a PIC matters all that much, just that being the guy in whose lap the buck stops changes your perspective on Command in a way that all the technical expertise and StickNRudder in the world can't and won't. Just an opinion, we've all got one.

Exactly. Everybody needs to learn how to make decisions, and it starts by being a PIC on a Cessna, Piper, etc. and working your way up. We didn't start reading novels in first grade. We also didn't learn to read novels by having somebody else read them to us. It's a process.

 

[N519AT]

Sounds like the NTSB is going to get awful busy with this new flight in icing conditions rule.

That's what I'm thinking.

 

[wrxpilot]

So how in the hell is this stuff going to be logged? Do I need to go back and log all my flights where ice accrued and I was in a crew environment? Are these going to be additional columns in the logbook now?

Count me in for the 1500 hr/ATP rule. This one is a mess, created by idiots with no experience in the aviation industry.

 

[jtrain609]

Try not to over think this one, guys. I'm willing to bet this will end up being a new endorsement that has just as much effectiveness as the high altitude endorsement, which is probably the most fraudulently added endorsement in the history of endorsements.

 

[wrxpilot]

Try not to over think this one, guys. I'm willing to bet this will end up being a new endorsement that has just as much effectiveness as the high altitude endorsement, which is probably the most fraudulently added endorsement in the history of endorsements.

Perhaps, but it doesn't seem like this would be a one time endorsement. BTW, I didn't realize the high altitude endorsement was so fraudulent. Even my old cheapo 135 employer did mine by the book.

 

[deadstick]

Getting to the party late...

After reading these posts and following this Call to In-action, it looks like #1 the FAA is unwilling to upset their customer (121) and #2, as usual, the jokers in DC have no frakin' idea what they are doing. This is just as dumb as the Riddle waiver.

so they want multi-pilot operations and icing experience?

multi pilot being instruction
icing being 135????

if not i don't know how you would ever get that experience (not looking for the airlines myself, but it will make it a lot harder to get into 135 like i want too)

Wow. That sound you hear is the 135 pay-for-right-seat places having an orgasm. I'm looking forward to the Flight Express/Riddle Bridge Program. Hope they pay extra for having to put the right seat back in the airplane. "Shut up and don't touch anything, here's a flashlight, you can watch the ice accrue on the wing".

I think Boris hit this on the head. How else can they get the experience? Tab Express closed up.

I wonder how many congress men and women riddle payed off for this one.

Looks like at least one, ol' Chuckie!

How do they expect pilots to accrue this "adverse weather and mult-crew" experience? Is Riddle (or whoever) going to get a King Air and charge have students sit in the right seat and fly through icing?

Tab Express II

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the whole idea of a two person cockpit is that the person sitting on the right side isn't a passenger or a student pilot.

There you go thinking rationally. Gotta stop that.


For those who don't remember...

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and let's not forget...

 

[scramjet]

I think he's talking about the sort of ab-initio programs one sees overseas. I'm fine with those, as long as they don't devolve to the MPL. Crew training is great, and necessary, but you really need to be able to fly an airplane yourself.

That would be great, but US airlines won't do it because they've been in an extreme cost cutting mode since 2001 and there's plenty of pilots looking for jobs. The only reasons overseas airlines do it is because they really have no supply of pilots or can't retain pilots long enough in many places.

 

[deadstick]

After reading the story on the deal, I saw another article, Who's Flying Your Airplane. I just couldn't believe my eyes when I saw this:

At that point, it may not take long for a pilot glut to become a pilot shortage.


Even though there are 6,000 pilots on furlough today, “that’s only three or four months’ worth of pilots” if hiring rebounds to its pace of a few years ago, said Darby, the industry consultant.


“This shortage will develop very quickly,” he said.

Mr. Kit Darby, Ladies and Gentlemen. He's baaaack.

:rotfl::rotfl:

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

Bad news. An 800 hour requirement does virtually nothing, and the multi-crew and adverse weather requirements will almost certainly be whittled down to nothing in the NPRM by just making it some sort of sign-off after some sim and ground instruction. With very few pilots being hired with less than 800 hours, even during the regional hiring binge, this new requirement will do nothing. We needed the 1500 hours to make a real impact. Very disappointing, but not unexpected.

Why so instead of being paid your first year on the job you actually have to pay to sit in the jumpseat and gain "experience"? Thats pretty much what Gulfstream was doing. "Here, sit and watch but DONT TOUCH!"

Actually, that's not even close to what Gulfstream was doing.

 

[Itchy]

BOOOOOoooooooo!
Stupid, moronic legislation, open to interpretation.
Disgusting.
They should have left it at ATP, no squirming around, defending, yada yada. ATP and be done with it.

 

[CRJDriver]

The guys at Gulfstream Academy are already jumping of joy! I can already hear the marketing department working on new Ads for pilots to get their required "multi-pilot" flight time...

 

[deadstick]

The guys at Gulfstream Academy are already jumping of joy! I can already hear the marketing department working on new Ads for pilots to get their required "multi-pilot" flight time...

Hey I think I'll go buy a couple of A/B90 King Airs and go start an academy in central Kansas. X/Cs to DIA for complex airspace. The hull cost is about the same as a new 172!! I'll get that ice and crew experience for ya.

Cash, money orders, MC, VISA will be accepted.

 

[sorrygottarunway]

maybe I'm slow, but I don't get the 3407 connection at all that the article makes at the top. Renslow and Shaw were not below 1500 hours at all, way above in fact.