Released with no void time?

BobDDuck

BobDDuck

Island Bus Driver
We came out of PGV today and called Raleigh Radio to get a clearance. I told them we'd be ready to go in 15 minutes. They checked with who ever they check with and then gave us our clearance and said we were released with no void time. I asked him to clarify that and he said he didn't understand it either but said "they'd" told him that there was no void time.

So we taxied out, took off and checked in with ZDC with no problems. I asked the center controller what was up with the lack of a void time and he said it all depends on who is working the chair that day.

I've got no problem with not trying to beat out a void time on a clearance, but I wondered what would have happened if we'd been coming out of an airport in the middle of nowhere and crashed on takeoff before checking in with Center. Would they have eventually wondered where we were and sent people looking for us?

Anybody have this happen to them before? (the no void time thing... not crashing and wondering if anybody will show up).
 
BobDDuck said:
Anybody have this happen to them before? (the no void time thing... not crashing and wondering if anybody will show up).
Click to expand...

Yes; a controller I spoke with on the phone about it said that someone he knew had issued such a clearance to a pilot, then the pilot shut down his airplane and went across the street to have breakfast. In the meantime, the airport was shut down to IFR arrivals and departures for 30 minutes. The other controllers laughed at the controller involved and clearly thought it was due to his foolishness, rather than that of the pilot. A controller doesn't issue a clearance void time at his own risk.
The ATC handbook says this:

10−3−1. OVERDUE AIRCRAFT

a. Consider an aircraft to be overdue, initiate the
procedures stated in this section and issue an ALNOT
when neither communications nor radar contact can

be established and 30 minutes have passed since:

​



​
NOTE​

−​

The procedures in this section also apply to an aircraft referred to as “missing” or “unreported.”

1. Its ETA over a specified or compulsory reporting point or at a clearance limit in your area.​


​
2. Its clearance void time.​

b. If you have reason to believe that an aircraft is overdue prior to 30 minutes, take the appropriate
action immediately.​



​
 
tgrayson said:
Yes; a controller I spoke with on the phone about it said that someone he knew had issued such a clearance to a pilot, then the pilot shut down his airplane and went across the street to have breakfast. In the meantime, the airport was shut down to IFR arrivals and departures for 30 minutes. The other controllers laughed at the controller involved and clearly thought it was due to his foolishness, rather than that of the pilot. A controller doesn't issue a clearance void time at his own risk.
The ATC handbook says this:

10−3−1. OVERDUE AIRCRAFT

a. Consider an aircraft to be overdue, initiate the
procedures stated in this section and issue an ALNOT
when neither communications nor radar contact can

be established and 30 minutes have passed since:

​



​
NOTE​

−​

The procedures in this section also apply to an aircraft referred to as “missing” or “unreported.”

1. Its ETA over a specified or compulsory reporting point or at a clearance limit in your area.​


​
2. Its clearance void time.​

b. If you have reason to believe that an aircraft is overdue prior to 30 minutes, take the appropriate
action immediately.​



​
Click to expand...

Doesn't directly go with the question at hand, but the reverse situation happened and made me hold for real the only time I've ever had to hold. Guy landed and didn't close his IFR flight plan. I had to hold until the 30 minutes ran out.
 
Off topic...

PGV is a real garden spot. Can't believe they take RJs in there now. I used to fly freight there in the C402 from New Bern and Raleigh. At the time CCAir operated Jetstreams and Shorts 360s there...
 
Continuing off the topic....

I lived in New Bern for a little over 2 years, I really liked it there, minus that oppresive humidity, BBQ was outstanding!
 
I was 21 years old, making $90 an hour and flying a multi-engine airplane. Life would've been awesome in New Bern.
 
I posted a while back about my experience in SoCal when a guy gave me a clearance with no hold for release and no void time over the phone, but got irate when we announced on the CTAF that we were taking the runway for departure without addressing him on the freq first. Too bad I was a little unsure of whether I was in the right, so I just apologized a lot and tried to be good for the rest of the month.
 
Yes, I frequently do not get a clearance void time departing prior to the tower opening up. This may also be the fact that we are usually within 30 mins of the tower opening or the fact that there is a RCO to approach there. But yes, I frequently get no void time when departing.
 
Maybe it has a lot to do with being so far away from a large airport? That at PVG there's not really any conflicting IFR traffic? Here at GXY, we're just outside the Mode C vail around Denver International, and I've had void times as little as two minutes, and as long as 15.

Just my 2 cents worth.
 
clearance void times are NOT required. it's only used for separation. if the controller is reasonably sure that no aircraft will need the airport in the foreseeable future then they can issue a clearance without a void time. i'm not sure what it does for SAR or ALNOTs. all i know is it's a silly technique not to give a void time...even if it's 30 minutes.

here's our only guidance:

4-3-4. DEPARTURE RESTRICTIONS, CLEARANCE VOID TIMES, HOLD FOR RELEASE, AND RELEASE TIMES
Assign departure restrictions, clearance void times, hold for release, or release times when necessary to separate departures from other traffic or to restrict or regulate the departure flow.
a. Clearance Void Times.
1. When issuing clearance void times at airports not served by control towers, provide alternative instructions requiring the pilots to advise ATC of their intentions no later than 30 minutes after the clearance void time if not airborne.
2. The facility delivering a clearance void time to a pilot shall issue a time check.
 
If it's only for separation, when do you consider the A/C overdue? I was always taught, and always taught you need to give a void time. Otherwise if they crash and you don't call it in for an hour or two, you'll really get hit in the investigation. Just give them +30 minutes, why not?
 
Atcdc said:
If it's only for separation, when do you consider the A/C overdue? I was always taught, and always taught you need to give a void time. Otherwise if they crash and you don't call it in for an hour or two, you'll really get hit in the investigation. Just give them +30 minutes, why not?
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You use the time of the release for the purpose of coordinating overdue a/c. Often we tell a/c to hold for release and call #1 ready to depart. In this case a realease time is almost more valid for a time coordinating an overdue a/c as it will start the process sooner.
 
boondr said:
You use the time of the release for the purpose of coordinating overdue a/c. Often we tell a/c to hold for release and call #1 ready to depart. In this case a realease time is almost more valid for a time coordinating an overdue a/c as it will start the process sooner.
Click to expand...

Sure, but what happens if say, we get our release with no void, start to taxi out and have to return to the gate because of an MX issue. In reality, I would be calling RDU Radio again to let them know what is going on, but with no void time I could conceivably sit out a two hour wait for a mechanic to fix the problem, start up and taxi back out like nothing ever happened.
 
BobDDuck said:
Sure, but what happens if say, we get our release with no void, start to taxi out and have to return to the gate because of an MX issue. In reality, I would be calling RDU Radio again to let them know what is going on, but with no void time I could conceivably sit out a two hour wait for a mechanic to fix the problem, start up and taxi back out like nothing ever happened.
Click to expand...


I am talking when in direct comms with an a/c through a remote transmitter. When relaying through FSS or even a phoneline it is always best to issue a void time. (Especially since FSS might decide to let you know you're released on their own schedule). Probably should have been a void time relayed, then again it is on the controller in that situation.
 
Atcdc said:
If it's only for separation, when do you consider the A/C overdue? I was always taught, and always taught you need to give a void time. Otherwise if they crash and you don't call it in for an hour or two, you'll really get hit in the investigation. Just give them +30 minutes, why not?
Click to expand...
your right, as i stated. i ALWAYS use a clearance void time.

an A/C is overdue when i need the airport reopened for aircraft operations. there is no ATC requirement for considering an aircraft overdue when they've been issued an IFR clearance without a clearance void time.
 
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