He's got a good point. You already have the credentials to be a pilot, so you can always go back to it whenever you want. I'd stay in and give law school a shot, you can change your mind if you don't like it and go back to flying.
Should jtrain take recall?
- Thread starter jtrain609
- Start date
He's got a good point. You already have the credentials to be a pilot, so you can always go back to it whenever you want. I'd stay in and give law school a shot, you can change your mind if you don't like it and go back to flying.
This. There are plenty of lawyers that make far less than 50-60k. Add on top of that the loans that you're dealing with. Top law schools, high class rank, and big law jobs are the ones that pay the huge salaries, but they are few and far between, and the legal job market isn't that hot right now, as you probably know.
Can you try to fly and go to school at the same time? Probably. You can even probably start paying down some school loans too. I guess I'd look into that option, if I were in your position.
SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
Going straight into ALPA's Legal or Representation departments is difficult, as ALPA is one of the few places that labor attorneys on the side of labor can go and make a good living. You usually have to go to work for the NLRB, AFL-CIO, NMB, or another labor union for a few years first to get experience and build a reputation. With that said, you can bet I'll do everything I can to help John get in if ALPA's hiring when he's done. Right now ALPA isn't hiring, though.
The airline job market and career for that matter is worse. He can surely do better than 19000 per year.
dasleben
That's just, like, your opinion, man
Well hold on.
He won't go back to a $19,000/year job. He'll go back to somewhere around $31,000 at min guarantee. Certainly nothing to write home about, but he's not going to be stuck at that forever. Everyone focuses on bottom of the barrel FO pay, and yeah it sucks, but you're not going to spend your career at $19,000 or $31,000.
tonyw
Well-Known Member
Become an attorney and fly for fun.
tonyw
Well-Known Member
Uh...not to be argumentative, but I know a number of people who went to second tier law schools who got more than the top paid pilot at a regional will get once they passed the bar.
SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
From what I've heard from some of our attorneys, it sounds as though what law school you attended is only important for landing that first job out of school. After that, it mostly hinges upon your record and reputation. Apparently you can go to a third tier law school, take your first job at a small firm for little money, but move up pretty easily after a couple of years to a big firm if you've done well for yourself as an attorney.
I_Money
Moderator
My wife is an L1 too and here is my take:
Firstly I think this should have been thought about before you 'moved on'. I know when my wife went to law school, I was adament that she be certain in her career choice before enrolling. Law school is tolling, financially and in many other aspects of your life. You are likely in $25,000 debt and on your way to $150,000 quite fast. Unless you got a full ride I do not think it is feasible to complete law school and go back to flying.
But what I would say is the most important aspect is how will you did in your first semester. If you were top 10% from what I have seen you can guide your career and internships with ease and really do what you want. The further you are from that top 10% the more the career guides you.
Firstly I think this should have been thought about before you 'moved on'. I know when my wife went to law school, I was adament that she be certain in her career choice before enrolling. Law school is tolling, financially and in many other aspects of your life. You are likely in $25,000 debt and on your way to $150,000 quite fast. Unless you got a full ride I do not think it is feasible to complete law school and go back to flying.
But what I would say is the most important aspect is how will you did in your first semester. If you were top 10% from what I have seen you can guide your career and internships with ease and really do what you want. The further you are from that top 10% the more the career guides you.
Hey now......we're determining his life here......his future is in our hands!
Have you no respect?!?!
Hootie
Old Skool
PGT
Well-Known Member
Yep, the train loves the attention.
Captain_Bob
Well-Known Member
This same man once told me... "I'll never go to a Regional Airline."
Then, one day, out of the blue, I get a phone call.
"Bob... You'll never guess why I'm calling..."
Don't let him fool you... he's capable of changing his mind for reasons all his own.
Pilotwannabe1123
New Member
Depends on how much you really want to study for your next round of tests!
Do they have an "online" program?
I don't think so, but NO ONE would want to take a Law School online.
jtrain609
Antisocial Monster
Ok, let's see if we can handle all of this.
First of all, thanks for the input everybody. I really appreciate some of the insight here. As I said, the people here have made my career, and have been hugely influential on my life.
When I was at Amflight, I realized really quickly that I was going to have the minimums to get to a mainline carrier in short order. I also realized that after seeing the abuse that the line pilots took, combined with having just started dating a girl in Salt Lake City that I needed to leave LA, leave Amflight and move to a regional. I talked with folks here, and they all said ExpressJet. Sounded good, Bob and Alchemy took care of it, and the next thing I knew I was in Houston in training.
But as the best laid plans often go, I managed to get hired just as the economy was starting to unravel. Hiring stopped, I never got off reserve, I got furloughed. Blah blah blah, a few of us here have been through the exact same thing.
One of you guys, and I'll let you remain anonymous until you pop in here, said to me the other day that he really likes flying airplanes, but flying airliners is incredibly unfulfilling. I tend to agree with him, but at the same time, you're still flying airplanes.
But there's a problem. All people see is ASCII text, and all people understand on the internet seem to be binary answers. Yes/no. Go/Don't go. Do it/don't do it. Good/bad. Life is, as we all know, is MUCH more nuanced than this. Life is never as simple as "do this, do that," and neither is this decision.
Quite frankly, what gets lost in the ether here is that most of us, myself included, love flying airplanes. Now you wouldn't know this unless you go to a meet and greet. If you do, you'll see a bunch of us telling lies about flights we've done, planes we've flown, etc. etc. Truth be told, flying airplanes for a living WAS my dream, and I attained it. I started flying when I was 16, and in a decade managed to move from flying Cessna 152's in Bay City, MI to flying regional jets at .78 and three seven oh. Moving from that level to where I finally ended up was truly fulfilling my aviation dreams.
But dreams, as they often do in life, change. They meander from place to place. Now my dreams? They're focused squarely on my wife. Now the young guys here won't understand this (I sure didn't), but I really like spending time with her, and the hours I work now allow for that.
At the same time, I've got an itch to go fly airplanes again. I've flown 1.4 hours during a BFR in the last 16 months, and as some of you know that's really frustrating to deal with. So the easy out is to just head back to the airline, scratch that itch with an EMB-145 and then move onto the next thing.
It's the most affordable option, because it pays, but at the same time it's also the most talismanic option.
So what do I have in front of me? A few cut points, and as Bob said, I've made some pretty radical changes in my life when I NEVER thought I would take X, Y or Z route. I could leave at the end of my first year, or I could hopefully bypass until graduation and then go back, or I could resign and go back some other time. All of these options have their own difficulties.
So with that, first, there is no online law school; the ABA won't certify it, and for good reason as far as I'm concerned. This is something you need to be in class to do. Next, there IS part time law school, and I have a full 5 years to finish my program. The problem with that is that I'd never be able to to bid a schedule that would assure me that I'd have the same days off every single week for months at a time, even if I bypassed until the last recall opportunity.
Also, yes we could pay off the debt from school. It's only in the neighborhood of $30,000, which we could pay off in a year if we wanted to. A pain in the butt? Sure, but it's not impossible.
Next, lawyers don't make nearly as much money as people think they do (kinda like pilots). I'm expecting to pop out of law school making $30,000 a year working at legal aid. I actually ran the numbers for an assignment the other day, and if I retired from ExpressJet, I'll do much better (financially) than I would as an attorney. The training costs are actually a VERY small part of the issue, yearly pay is the real problem. I'd be shorting myself by around $1.5 million over the course of my career by not retiring from ExpressJet. While the starting pay is low at the regionals, the end of career payout is much higher than most careers I've considered. So while I'd love to "just buy a Baron," it's not going to happen.
Next the issue of commuting; there isn't one. I can drive 2.5 hours to one base, and 4-5 to another. I actually went to Express BECAUSE I DIDN'T WANT A CROSS COUNTRY COMMUTE! Too bad we ended up in the DCI shuffle and closed down the west coast bases before I could bid into them. Such is life, but now I've got two bases in driving distance, and one an easy flight away.
Also, was I angry when I was on reserve only to get furloughed? Yes, and you would be too. If you don't think you would be, then you're not paying attention. When you work for a dream for so long, only to get kicked around and then have it taken away, you get angry. If you've been there, you understand. If you haven't, you're blowing hot air. Ask snickersnwa about some of the conversations we had leading up to the furlough.
It is also with that that I'll try to respond to a few individuals here.
Charlie,
Incredibly good point, which is why I'm thinking things through instead of simply acting. You know me, and I don't do anything rashly and without thought.
deadstick,
I've considered this also; bypass as long as possible, then take an educational LOA until I finish school and pass the bar. Mostly this would be an option if I can't find a job as an attorney I think, but doing trusts and estates while on the road would be cake, and provide two sources of income.
Waco,
That was the first issue I dealt with, and I have some ideas. I'll discuss them via PM with you at some point.
Lloyd, you've changed bro, come back one of these days the way you used to be. You're "mockery" of the haters is worse than being a hater yourself. You're trying to stir the pot while looking like you've got your hands off the ladle.
MikeD, always knew I could count on your analysis
Kristie,
This hasn't eluded me, and I've considered it. I'm only 27, and not at the point in my life where I NEED to do A, B or C; but that point IS approaching.
Loadmaster,
You just nailed part of it. I'm not always remembering the bad, but I'm trying to conjure it back up.
PGT,
I noticed this also
mxflyer,
This is an excellent point. You know the best piece of advice I ever heard on furloughs was from a Delta crew when I was jumpseating to work. The furlough was coming in a few weeks, and the captain turned around, looked me straight in the eye and said, "Son, listen, I know you like airplanes. We all like airplanes; but you take this furlough and you walk away as if you're never going to get another job flying airplanes ever again. If you get recalled, that's great and you've got some choices to make, but you set your life up now without the airlines, because that job might be gone forever." This is exactly what I've done.
pilotmg1501,
First of all, thanks for the input everybody. I really appreciate some of the insight here. As I said, the people here have made my career, and have been hugely influential on my life.
When I was at Amflight, I realized really quickly that I was going to have the minimums to get to a mainline carrier in short order. I also realized that after seeing the abuse that the line pilots took, combined with having just started dating a girl in Salt Lake City that I needed to leave LA, leave Amflight and move to a regional. I talked with folks here, and they all said ExpressJet. Sounded good, Bob and Alchemy took care of it, and the next thing I knew I was in Houston in training.
But as the best laid plans often go, I managed to get hired just as the economy was starting to unravel. Hiring stopped, I never got off reserve, I got furloughed. Blah blah blah, a few of us here have been through the exact same thing.
One of you guys, and I'll let you remain anonymous until you pop in here, said to me the other day that he really likes flying airplanes, but flying airliners is incredibly unfulfilling. I tend to agree with him, but at the same time, you're still flying airplanes.
But there's a problem. All people see is ASCII text, and all people understand on the internet seem to be binary answers. Yes/no. Go/Don't go. Do it/don't do it. Good/bad. Life is, as we all know, is MUCH more nuanced than this. Life is never as simple as "do this, do that," and neither is this decision.
Quite frankly, what gets lost in the ether here is that most of us, myself included, love flying airplanes. Now you wouldn't know this unless you go to a meet and greet. If you do, you'll see a bunch of us telling lies about flights we've done, planes we've flown, etc. etc. Truth be told, flying airplanes for a living WAS my dream, and I attained it. I started flying when I was 16, and in a decade managed to move from flying Cessna 152's in Bay City, MI to flying regional jets at .78 and three seven oh. Moving from that level to where I finally ended up was truly fulfilling my aviation dreams.
But dreams, as they often do in life, change. They meander from place to place. Now my dreams? They're focused squarely on my wife. Now the young guys here won't understand this (I sure didn't), but I really like spending time with her, and the hours I work now allow for that.
At the same time, I've got an itch to go fly airplanes again. I've flown 1.4 hours during a BFR in the last 16 months, and as some of you know that's really frustrating to deal with. So the easy out is to just head back to the airline, scratch that itch with an EMB-145 and then move onto the next thing.
It's the most affordable option, because it pays, but at the same time it's also the most talismanic option.
So what do I have in front of me? A few cut points, and as Bob said, I've made some pretty radical changes in my life when I NEVER thought I would take X, Y or Z route. I could leave at the end of my first year, or I could hopefully bypass until graduation and then go back, or I could resign and go back some other time. All of these options have their own difficulties.
So with that, first, there is no online law school; the ABA won't certify it, and for good reason as far as I'm concerned. This is something you need to be in class to do. Next, there IS part time law school, and I have a full 5 years to finish my program. The problem with that is that I'd never be able to to bid a schedule that would assure me that I'd have the same days off every single week for months at a time, even if I bypassed until the last recall opportunity.
Also, yes we could pay off the debt from school. It's only in the neighborhood of $30,000, which we could pay off in a year if we wanted to. A pain in the butt? Sure, but it's not impossible.
Next, lawyers don't make nearly as much money as people think they do (kinda like pilots). I'm expecting to pop out of law school making $30,000 a year working at legal aid. I actually ran the numbers for an assignment the other day, and if I retired from ExpressJet, I'll do much better (financially) than I would as an attorney. The training costs are actually a VERY small part of the issue, yearly pay is the real problem. I'd be shorting myself by around $1.5 million over the course of my career by not retiring from ExpressJet. While the starting pay is low at the regionals, the end of career payout is much higher than most careers I've considered. So while I'd love to "just buy a Baron," it's not going to happen.
Next the issue of commuting; there isn't one. I can drive 2.5 hours to one base, and 4-5 to another. I actually went to Express BECAUSE I DIDN'T WANT A CROSS COUNTRY COMMUTE! Too bad we ended up in the DCI shuffle and closed down the west coast bases before I could bid into them. Such is life, but now I've got two bases in driving distance, and one an easy flight away.
Also, was I angry when I was on reserve only to get furloughed? Yes, and you would be too. If you don't think you would be, then you're not paying attention. When you work for a dream for so long, only to get kicked around and then have it taken away, you get angry. If you've been there, you understand. If you haven't, you're blowing hot air. Ask snickersnwa about some of the conversations we had leading up to the furlough.
It is also with that that I'll try to respond to a few individuals here.
Charlie,
Incredibly good point, which is why I'm thinking things through instead of simply acting. You know me, and I don't do anything rashly and without thought.
deadstick,
I've considered this also; bypass as long as possible, then take an educational LOA until I finish school and pass the bar. Mostly this would be an option if I can't find a job as an attorney I think, but doing trusts and estates while on the road would be cake, and provide two sources of income.
Waco,
That was the first issue I dealt with, and I have some ideas. I'll discuss them via PM with you at some point.
Lloyd, you've changed bro, come back one of these days the way you used to be. You're "mockery" of the haters is worse than being a hater yourself. You're trying to stir the pot while looking like you've got your hands off the ladle.
MikeD, always knew I could count on your analysis
Kristie,
This hasn't eluded me, and I've considered it. I'm only 27, and not at the point in my life where I NEED to do A, B or C; but that point IS approaching.
Loadmaster,
You just nailed part of it. I'm not always remembering the bad, but I'm trying to conjure it back up.
PGT,
I noticed this also
mxflyer,
This is an excellent point. You know the best piece of advice I ever heard on furloughs was from a Delta crew when I was jumpseating to work. The furlough was coming in a few weeks, and the captain turned around, looked me straight in the eye and said, "Son, listen, I know you like airplanes. We all like airplanes; but you take this furlough and you walk away as if you're never going to get another job flying airplanes ever again. If you get recalled, that's great and you've got some choices to make, but you set your life up now without the airlines, because that job might be gone forever." This is exactly what I've done.
pilotmg1501,
TFaudree_ERAU
Mashin' dem buttons
So Mitch, what are your views on one night stands and pre-marital sex?
scramjet
Well-Known Member
Without having read this whole thread and without knowing a whole lot about your background, I just have to say do what you REALLY want to do, not what you think is the 'best' or 'most reasonable' course of action barring of course any major financial issues or something to that extent. Most pilots (and I'm generalizing here) are intelligent, educated, and have options, they typically don't take the job because it's the only thing they can get unlike, say, a 50 year old, poorly educated Wal Mart cashier with no options. Do what makes you happy keeping in mind that you have options given the fact that you possess something 75% of Americans don't have: a college degree (not making that figure up). Follow the dreams, life IS too short...all that cliche but oh so true advice. Keep in mind, though, this comes from the perspective of a soon to be graduated 21 year old college student with no debt, so your mileage may vary.