Why not hire a high time old guy?

[dc3flyer]

And T-cart has more bad habits than most. He would try to do the entire trip at 5-10 feet AGL.

I didn't mean anything bad about T-Cart, but even if I did, I know he can handle it!!!

...or some good habits and experience that can be used. When I was new on the 727, we had hired a lot of the guys from Braniff and on one trip my F/O was a former chief pilot and an experienced F-8 driver. The F/E had been a Concorde check airman. I later flew quite often with the former CP and he was absolutely one of the best F/Os I ever flew with.

I agree with the cookie cutter assertion but I know some guys who constantly strive to improve and take criticism quite well, especially when it is valid.

The exception in the case you quoted was former airline pilots going to a different airline. They were very experienced in the both flight time as well as airline cultures.
What T-cart is asking, is why not hire a guy who has lots of experience outside the airline world. Could someone that has 15,000 hours of ag experience fit into the airline culture? What about someone that has 15,000 hours of aerial photogrophy experience, or even a lifer flight instructor? On the flip side, could a long time airline pilot make the switch to a different sector of aviation, such as ag flying???

I am not saying that any of the above scenarios couldn't happen, I just think an employer would have a little apprehension.

 

[C150J]

I'm confident that most people would approach this on a case-by-case basis, using probationary year to determine if the person is "the right fit."

For all those stating that you might have bad habits as you gain time, I completely disagree. GENERALLY, if someone has over 10,000 hours, they have proven that they're able to keep themselves from getting killed in an airplane.

I hate to sound cynical (because I honestly like my job), but as Sully said in his book, HR is looking for compliance, not leadership.

 

[Orange Anchor]

What T-cart is asking, is why not hire a guy who has lots of experience outside the airline world. Could someone that has 15,000 hours of ag experience fit into the airline culture? What about someone that has 15,000 hours of aerial photogrophy experience, or even a lifer flight instructor? On the flip side, could a long time airline pilot make the switch to a different sector of aviation, such as ag flying???

That is analogous to asking if a military pilot can adapt to gen-av or airline or airline to gen-av. The GOOD aviator adapts to the environment and its requirements. Military is time on target, mission oriented. Gen-Av is up front with the customer. Airline is.. well, I don't know anymore as it seems to have changed.

But again, it is the individual and the culture they are trying to join. Each company (or airline) has its own culture. Yes, stick and rudder skills are important but more so, are YOU going to fit in with the culture. Stick and rudder skills can be taught and if you get the interview, the company is looking to hire you.

I have been fortunate to be in three communities, four if charter is separate from gen-av and each has its own environment. But in each, I have adapt to that specific company and not spend a lot of time dragging a "... well, at ABC we did it this way." mentality to the event.

 

[t-cart]

Hey guys, Thanks for all of the responses. I'm really not looking to change course as far as my career is now. I might like to try my hand at some part time corporate or charter.

I did read in a few different places that (some) regionals didn't like to hire guys with high TT for whatever reason. I remember reading this and thinking that it didn't make sense to me to have that approach to filling the cockpit. I'm just trying to get the inside skinny on what your companies policy on this might be.

I can't remember where I read this, but I do remember seeing it in several different places.

Thanks again for your comments.

 

[C150J]

I agree with your post in its entirety, but wanted to expound on this comment:

Airline is.. well, I don't know anymore as it seems to have changed.

This is where my "compliance, not leadership" statement originates. Regional airlines don't care about customer-service orientation, nor your ability to vacate FL240 at idle and not spool up until just outside the FAF. They care about one thing: are you going to fly on your days off, when you're tired, or with questionable/conflicting MELs? They KNOW an experienced pilot/employee will refuse to fly in such scenarios on the basis of safety (and overall common sense). They want a "I'm just happy to be here" attitude, which is generally engendered by young, low-experience pilots who feel lucky to be occupying the seat of a part 25 aircraft. They also want someone with minimal work experience (just enough to know you're not going to bail right after training), as they won't be familiar with unrealistic work requests.


Bottom line: if an outfit doesn't want to hire you because you have lots of experience as a pilot and an ADULT, you definitely don't want to work there.

 

[Swen]

T-Cart.

I'm sure we could find you a position doing low level charter in an air tractor. Origination points would be outside of the U.S. though, likely at night. The manifest would list migrants... I mean sombreros and tequila as the cargo...

"amber lamps."

This=Win!

 

[ChasenSFO]

Very intereting points here.

 

[SIUav8er]

I had student who was a 3000 hour private pilot, 57 years old, and retired from his previous career. he owned his own airplane so his experience was just flying around for fun. He came to ATP, got all his ratings and was hired by Express Jet after he got his CFI.

Of course this was a few years ago... Last I heard from him he was flying a Falcon 20 for a little charter company since he was furloughed from Express

 

[Baronman]

Why would a guy (who must be having lots of fun in his TBM700 or Caravan) would want to start from scratch at 50+ and having to deal with 22-23 yo pilots ?
How would a 30 yo captain deal with a 20,000 hrs FO ?
True there's the attraction of flying a CRJ but IMAO the funs wears very quickly...

I'm a 30-something yr old Captain....how would I deal with a 20,000hr FO? I dunno...I'd have to come up with something?! ;-)

Really, provided the guy is professional there should be no problem, but that goes for a 600hr FO or a 20,000hr FO.

I would appreciate his experience etc...I hope he would respect that I probably have more experience in our aircraft/the CAL operation/EWR etc....

 

[skydog2]

I read once that after age 50, the pilot ranks start to thin out due to medical disqualification. The stat was that only about 40% make it to (then) mandatatory retirement age 60.

The thinking may be that there is less chance of ROI on an "old timer"

 

[BobDDuck]

I know when the hiring boom was in full swing a couple of years back we hired a few high time older guys. I know a few made it but a bunch of them had a hell of a time adapting to glass and the airline environment of reserve life. They just weren't willing to be abused by a crew scheduler or treated like a kid.

Nothing wrong with that, but in the regional world, that's pretty much how it operates.

 

[Lee D]

Personally I think you just have to convince the guys doing the hiring that you are not an old, crotchety know it all that will be the bane of all the captains you fly with.

I have seen a retired Delta 777 captain who flew in the right seat of the Brasilia for a few years. (His son was a captain at the time and they flew together when they were able.) There are a few other old timer/career changers around. It can be done and I'm sure most these guys know what they are getting into when they apply.

 

[Boris Badenov]

I'm not that old, but I suppose by regional standards I'm "high-time" (5500 or so). Have yet to get a call from a regional. My guess is that, as mentioned above, they don't want to have to "unteach" your "bad habits". Which is probably a fair point, really. From what I've read here, anyway, airline ops are all about "standardization", and a guy who is just starting to figure out where his posterior is located in an airplane is probably easier to train than a guy who thinks he's "done it all" and is liable to want to "show you how we did it single pilot". If I were a hiring manager, I'd put my resume in the circular file if it were between me and a kid who just wants to fly a jet. Shrug. It's not worth getting angry over, and it's not like they don't have a point. If they were short of guys who had the time and experience to upgrade, I could see hiring saltier dogs, but when you're going to spend a good 3-5 years in the right seat (at minimum), tabula rasa makes a powerful argument.

 

[splash]

I'm not that old, but I suppose by regional standards I'm "high-time" (5500 or so). Have yet to get a call from a regional. My guess is that, as mentioned above, they don't want to have to "unteach" your "bad habits". Which is probably a fair point, really. From what I've read here, anyway, airline ops are all about "standardization", and a guy who is just starting to figure out where his posterior is located in an airplane is probably easier to train than a guy who thinks he's "done it all" and is liable to want to "show you how we did it single pilot". If I were a hiring manager, I'd put my resume in the circular file if it were between me and a kid who just wants to fly a jet. Shrug. It's not worth getting angry over, and it's not like they don't have a point. If they were short of guys who had the time and experience to upgrade, I could see hiring saltier dogs, but when you're going to spend a good 3-5 years in the right seat (at minimum), tabula rasa makes a powerful argument.

maybe you could dumb down your flight time and resume then.

 

[Boris Badenov]

maybe you could dumb down your flight time and resume then.

It's occurred to me, because I'm a bad person. But in the fullness of time, one finds what's right for them without telling any fibs. Or so I've come to believe. I hope someone proves me right in the next couple of months!

 

[NJA_Capt]

Really, provided the guy is professional there should be no problem, but that goes for a 600hr FO or a 20,000hr FO.

I would appreciate his experience etc...I hope he would respect that I probably have more experience in our aircraft/the CAL operation/EWR etc....

You have to consider that your 20,000 FO may have more time holding short at EWR, than you have TT.

I was a 30ish capt with 20,000+ FOs....Guys who flew combat off a boat in VN, landed on the White House lawn, flew AF1 and have more time over the Atlantic than I ever want to see. All have been great to fly with and are enjoyable to talk to on long flights because the conversation is broader than the local system. None have had an ego problem.

My guess is that....they don't want to have to "unteach" your "bad habits". Which is probably a fair point, really.

I don't buy the bad habits arguement.....It has much more to do with a seasoned pilot being far less likely to accept the pay/conditions, management bureaucracy, probably have a poor taste in their mouth about previous carriers, and more likely to support labor organization/work actions.

A "newbie" is generally just happy to be there and is more likely to accept poor conditions for what he sees as a temporary situation. The job for them still has the "coolness" factor and they basically don't have as many job/life experiences to compare it to.

 

[staplegun]

I heard from a former HR guy for a regional airline that they prefer to higher younger, low time guys because they are easier to train and have less bad habitats already established. Basically they think that higher someone with high time will be harder to get them to do it their way.

A habitat (which is Latin for "it inhabits") is an ecological or environmental area that is inhabited by a particular species of animal, plant or other type of organism.

So, higher time pilots spend their time in strip-clubs or dive-bars???!!




Kevin

 

[splash]

It's occurred to me, because I'm a bad person. But in the fullness of time, one finds what's right for them without telling any fibs. Or so I've come to believe. I hope someone proves me right in the next couple of months!

I wish you luck with that. I been believing and hoping someone proves me right for almost 5 years now.