Pilot Pay:(

skydog2 said:
Everyone likes to focus on the first year pay as though that is the only salary a pilot will ever receive. It goes up pretty quickly and pretty significantly after one year.

Are you sure you want Michael Moore-on pleading your case for you?
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Oh yeah? I'm 3 years into being a professional pilot and I can't afford to move out of my mothers house....Keeping my fingers crossed for year 4!
 
3green said:
All those points are valid everyone is mentioning. As long as people line up for the job there is no incentive to raise pay. Additionally, I believe raising mins to 1500 would not raise pay. Just like RJ courses were created during good times to lower mins, some of the puppy mills will probably just create time building programs. People will still line up and take huge loans to get their "dream job". Airlines aren't going to care where you built your time. Remember who we are talking about here. Companies that work their employees hard, cut their pay, pad their bonuses and oversell tickets on purpose. Does anyone actually expect them to act ethically and raise pilot pay?
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What is unethical about market based payrates? for pilots or anybody else?
 
Hacker15e said:
Yes, that's exactly how it works in capitalism. There's no justification required -- the market sets the wages.
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That's true in a free market. I think most economists would have a real hard time saying that's the case in a highly regulated airline industry.
 
What is unethical about market based payrates? for pilots or anybody else?
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Nothing wrong with it. However, if your trusting the companies and FAA to set a fair rate good luck with that. Your expecting ethical behavior from very the last people I would on the planet. They've proven themselves to be out for everyone including the passengers/customers(low ticket prices) before their own employees(pay cuts).
 
Trip7 said:
Its not sad at all. If you look at the resumes stacked on Colgan's desk you'll understand that the regional salaries are justified.
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I sort of agree. But any legacy has just as many resumes yet the pay if substantially different. Yet per seat it may be about the same....the regional workrules are what really suck.
 
Although there is some validity to the statement that pay can be significantly higher after the first year. My friend at UPS said his pay jumped big time when he went from first year FO to second year. It was like a 5X increase! Oh wait, he is one of the bottom 300 about to be furloughed. Nevermind :cool:
 
AndrewT said:
Nothing. Have fun making 16k a year flying on reserve with the strong possibility of furlough in your future.
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You might be living the dream but you're not living in reality. Go down to the local big corporation and tell them you want a help desk job doing desktop support (entry level). Guaranteed you'll see a 100% plus pay increase. A few training classes and a couple of years later you can afford your own plane.
 
fholbert said:
You might be living the dream but you're not living in reality. Go down to the local big corporation and tell them you want a help desk job doing desktop support (entry level). Guaranteed you'll see a 100% plus pay increase. A few training classes and a couple of years later you can afford your own plane.
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I'd do that.
 
fholbert said:
You might be living the dream but you're not living in reality. Go down to the local big corporation and tell them you want a help desk job doing desktop support (entry level). Guaranteed you'll see a 100% plus pay increase. A few training classes and a couple of years later you can afford your own plane.
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Is that what you did?
 
3green said:
All those points are valid everyone is mentioning. As long as people line up for the job there is no incentive to raise pay. Additionally, I believe raising mins to 1500 would not raise pay. Just like RJ courses were created during good times to lower mins, some of the puppy mills will probably just create time building programs. People will still line up and take huge loans to get their "dream job". Airlines aren't going to care where you built your time. Remember who we are talking about here. Companies that work their employees hard, cut their pay, pad their bonuses and oversell tickets on purpose. Does anyone actually expect them to act ethically and raise pilot pay?
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:yeahthat:

If we could guarantee that bumping the minimums up to 1500 would create better working conditions and pay, I'd be all for it. But I'm not at all convinced that it will do that.
 
Xiph said:
:yeahthat:

If we could guarantee that bumping the minimums up to 1500 would create better working conditions and pay, I'd be all for it. But I'm not at all convinced that it will do that.
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1,500 TT isn't going to do a thing a thing for pay. Think about how many 1,500+ TT resumes are in the HR resource offices of Colgan and American Eagle right now...
 
fholbert said:
You might be living the dream but you're not living in reality. Go down to the local big corporation and tell them you want a help desk job doing desktop support (entry level). Guaranteed you'll see a 100% plus pay increase. A few training classes and a couple of years later you can afford your own plane.
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Even help desk jobs are hard to get now. I have my CCNP, and my A+ and I couldn't find anything.
 
Rudabega said:
Even help desk jobs are hard to get now. I have my CCNP, and my A+ and I couldn't find anything.
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It's always been tough in CO. Even in 2000 there was no demand for my friend who moved the from SoCal. He gave up and opened a coffee place.
 
IslandFlyer said:
I know I know, if you don't like the pay, don't apply.

Also, before anyone asks, no I wouldn't like to pay someone more than I had to, to get a job done. But maybe if safety and my reputation were on the line, I guess you "get what you pay for".
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A lot of us won't. Until the airlines raise their pay, I will never apply. Now, they don't care. They've got plenty of people who will. But I refuse to go work for someone that wants to pay me peanuts just so I can say "I fly airplanes."

Even in these difficult economic times, there are plenty of companies who understand that paying your employees well and treating them well is good for the bottom line and good for stockholders.

There's a limited number of people who are willing to do something for peanuts just because they love it.
 
jtrain609 said:
That's true in a free market. I think most economists would have a real hard time saying that's the case in a highly regulated airline industry.
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Airline pay is certainly not regulated. I think that makes it a free market. If you don't like it, walk. No one is holding a gun to someone's head to fly 121.
 
A lot of us won't. Until the airlines raise their pay, I will never apply. Now, they don't care. They've got plenty of people who will. But I refuse to go work for someone that wants to pay me peanuts just so I can say "I fly airplanes."
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Kudos to you. I wish I had thought that way before becoming an FO. But I did manage to grow a pair after being abused enough by CS and sitting reserve to decide to move onto greener pastures outside of professional aviation. Hobby flying on your own schedule and leisure is where its at!

But as I mentioned before I don't mind if somebody wants to live the dream so I can still click the button that says "cheapest fare" when I'm booking my tickets for vacation.
 
fholbert said:
You might be living the dream but you're not living in reality. Go down to the local big corporation and tell them you want a help desk job doing desktop support (entry level). Guaranteed you'll see a 100% plus pay increase. A few training classes and a couple of years later you can afford your own plane.
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I use to work IT, and my 'entry level' position advertised 22 thousand and change. I made less than 20 thousand both years I worked.

My first year as a flight instructor I made 20 thousand. Each year after the first I made over 40 thousand.

For me to have made that much money at my previous employer, I would have to probably spend at least 5 years there before I even came close to that kind of money.

It's not all roses and lollipops in the IT sector. I was equally overworked and underpaid at times in that industry just the same as I am now.
 
matt152 said:
Airline pay is certainly not regulated. I think that makes it a free market. If you don't like it, walk. No one is holding a gun to someone's head to fly 121.
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It's about the only thing that isn't regulated in some way in the Airline world.

Also, the "if you dont like it, walk" mentality wont change anything for the better. At some point, someone needs to stand up for what is right. There is no reason what so ever a person who is responsible for countless lives every year should be paid less than a worker at McDonalds, first year on the job is not an excuse.

Furthermore, if everyone had that attitude we might all still be working in sweat shops for 12 hours a day for scraps of bread. It is because workers said enough, mobilized and stood up to management and demanded respect that we have the 8 hour day and 5 day week.

Instead of telling people to shut up or leave, why not join them. You have nothing to lose, only something to gain. Would you not like to make a livable wage while having a better QOL?
 
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