CLT OPS

Bandit_Driver

Bandit_Driver

Gold Member
Can some explain this to me. My only guess is that it was because we would eventually be SSW bound.

Traffic is departing off the 36's and I am parked near C3. We call for taxi and are given 36C. I politely ask for the right side since we are sitting right there and assume the controller thought we were someplace else. Nope got 36C and had to wait for traffic going to the right side to clear out then taxi against the flow of ground traffic to the center.

SID was BOB3.HARAY
 

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If they're not on a departure/arrival push they might give you 36R to depart westbound. When they're in a north operation they are arriving and departing 36R, typically arriving 36L, sometimes arriving 36C, and departing 36C. They have to time things just right. When they put you into position there needs to be enough spacing on the arrivals to 36R to let you hold in position until traffic departing 36C has enough separation and is clear. If they're in a southbound operation they're much more likely to give you 18L because they're mostly arriving 23 and don't have to space the arrivals far enough apart for you to hold in position long enough to wait for the westbound spacing.

You would think the two tower controllers standing next to each other could just figure that one out, like the one working 36R could say to his buddy working 36C "Hey, don't depart anyone while I launch these jokers." but that would make too much sense. We've had LOTS of problems with ATC in Charlotte and they continue to do pretty much whatever they want up to and including knowingly issuing illegal clearances.

I'm guessing you were parked on the cargo ramp because typically if your parked at an FBO they'll taxi you north on Delta over to Alpha and then down Echo to get to 36C.
 
EDUC8-or said:
If they're not on a departure/arrival push they might give you 36R to depart westbound. When they're in a north operation they are arriving and departing 36R, typically arriving 36L, sometimes arriving 36C, and departing 36C. They have to time things just right. When they put you into position there needs to be enough spacing on the arrivals to 36R to let you hold in position until traffic departing 36C has enough separation and is clear. If they're in a southbound operation they're much more likely to give you 18L because they're mostly arriving 23 and don't have to space the arrivals far enough apart for you to hold in position long enough to wait for the westbound spacing.

You would think the two tower controllers standing next to each other could just figure that one out, like the one working 36R could say to his buddy working 36C "Hey, don't depart anyone while I launch these jokers." but that would make too much sense. We've had LOTS of problems with ATC in Charlotte and they continue to do pretty much whatever they want up to and including knowingly issuing illegal clearances.

I'm guessing you were parked on the cargo ramp because typically if your parked at an FBO they'll taxi you north on Delta over to Alpha and then down Echo to get to 36C.
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Just because it would be easier for you, and you THINK it would be easier for them, does not mean they can do it. I don't know what their SOP says, and I'm assuming you don't know. There is more than just a ground and local controller here to worry about, there is also a departure controller in the mix. If they go against their SOP, that could be a straw that breaks the camels back. I know a controller at ORD once told me that there used to be only one bridge for aircraft taxiing over the highway leading to the terminal. The flow on the bridge was supposed to always be southbound. He said occasionally a pilot at a gate near this bridge would beg to taxi on it northbound if their assigned runway was on the other side, instead of taxiing all the way around the terminal there. He said the few times a controller would give in and let them taxi northbound over the bridge, without fail, and airplane would be taxiing southbound, you would get two nose-to-nose, and a tug would have to come out to save the day. Do you see my point? Just because people think it is easier all the way around, does not mean it is, and does not mean they can do it. If I had to guess, the ground controller probably did want the aircraft going to 36R, and there is a reason why he couldn't do it.

As far as the controllers knowingly issuing illegal clearance, those are pretty strong accusations. I don't know impaticular what you are refering to, but I would avoid saying things like that unless you are positive, without a doubt, it is true. Do you know what waivers ATC is issued there? I don't know, so I could never comment on whether something is legal or not. Just because it is normally not allowed does not mean it is not allowed there. Almost every major airport gets waivers issued for ATC for certain things
 
I think I am going to side with EDUC8-or since he deals with these situations a lot... And his role at an 121 operation in and out of CLT.... He's pretty knowledgeable about this sort of thing ;)!
 
:confused:I guess he must be more knowledgable than a controller on ATC procedures. I also wasn't aware that being a 121 guy means that you get a copy of SOP's for ATC, and you also know which rules ATC gets a waiver on. I wasn't aware the FAA did this, I guess the ATC guys really don't know anything about how to run traffic, next time we have a question about what to do, we'll call up a 121 guy to find out
 
clestudentpilot said:
:confused:I guess he must be more knowledgable than a controller on ATC procedures. I also wasn't aware that being a 121 guy means that you get a copy of SOP's for ATC, and you also know which rules ATC gets a waiver on. I wasn't aware the FAA did this, I guess the ATC guys really don't know anything about how to run traffic, next time we have a question about what to do, we'll call up a 121 guy to find out
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You want to get started on ATC and more so CLT? :) We can go down that road..... Or all the high school graduates we now have bossing us around.... I give you that you work for them.... But the reasons as to why they could not depart that way were accurate as previously posted, were they not? I mean you talk to those in CLT and got a reason other then that? I'm seriously asking.... Because CLT could use a once over with their controllers... Perhaps we need to be even more strict on them in many regards, especially in CLT such as the before mentioned illegal clerances..... Heck there's a reason ATL center hates CLT..... It would appear CLT just cannot get things figured out.... Perhaps you could offer insight as to why CLT is such a cluter???

Ps... Why you are with the government employees of the FAA, could you ask them to get witht he NTSB and ask how the leaks of Colgan 3407, USairways 1549, and the most recent of a PSA flight in CRW managed to get out to the media ;)?
 
EDUC8-or said:
I'm guessing you were parked on the cargo ramp because typically if your parked at an FBO they'll taxi you north on Delta over to Alpha and then down Echo to get to 36C.
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You got I was flying a 727 and parked on the BAX ramp. It makes sense but still frustrating.


clestudentpilot said:
:confused:I guess he must be more knowledgable than a controller on ATC procedures. I also wasn't aware that being a 121 guy means that you get a copy of SOP's for ATC, and you also know which rules ATC gets a waiver on. I wasn't aware the FAA did this, I guess the ATC guys really don't know anything about how to run traffic, next time we have a question about what to do, we'll call up a 121 guy to find out
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Chill out man. I was simply asking a question and got a good answer from EDUC8OR and I'll agree CLT needs a little work. Just look at their history
 
meyers9163 said:
You want to get started on ATC and more so CLT? :) We can go down that road..... Or all the high school graduates we now have bossing us around....
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Quite funny. Most of the people I hired in with had college degrees or were former military. Very few recent hires have only High School diplomas.

I should know, I'm one of them and I know very few controllers hired after 1991 with no college or military background like myself . I do have a prior aviation background though.

That being said, that is a very petty remark. I guess if that is the case I should complain about all the inexperienced regional crews that don't know their butt from their head?

I'm not going to complain though. I got a job to do, you got a job to do. I understand my job, you understand your job. Neither understands each other's jobs well. The best controllers in my opinion are those that appreciate what the pilot is doing, I prefer a pilot that appreciates the job I am trying to do.

Come try ATC training. You might find it doesn't matter what you have before you come in. You can either do the job or you can't.

It may seem like a simple process, but 5 miles and 1,000 feet are a lot to miss by. While I am an advocate of giving shortcuts often when traffic loads permit, when things get busy it can throw a monkey wrench in the machine and the whole thing breaks. Safety is compromised, delays are incurred, and sometimes it's just better to stay with the SOP/LOA than work against it.

[/QUOTE]Ps... Why you are with the government employees of the FAA, could you ask them to get witht he NTSB and ask how the leaks of Colgan 3407, USairways 1549, and the most recent of a PSA flight in CRW managed to get out to the media ;)?[/QUOTE]

FAA is one organization. NTSB is a completely separate organization. Neither does anything with the other. So we can't do anything more than you can about that.

I bet your one of those that believes Air Traffic Controllers work side by side with the Inspectors you all dread having in your jumpseat.
 
In response to the original question, not being at CLT I can give you three possibilities.

1. (This being the most likely I would believe) There was a reason, and somewhere in the big scheme of things you taking off from the C runway fit the best. What these could be: SOPs that the controller hand no time to coordinate with the TRACON(who is not sitting in the tower and handles you just after you take off), known traffic that you would conflict with, or other stuff as a center controller I can't answer.

2. The controller(possibly a trainee) had a plan already with no time to change it and made a mistake. We all make mistakes, it happens.

3. Lazy controller who just didn't want to bother doing it or a controller that believes no matter what if it is written in an LOA/SOP that is how it is done, no exceptions. Both of those types annoy the hell out of you, me, other pilots, and other controllers. Unfortunately if that was the case I apologize, please don't hold his/her actions against the rest of us. He/she probably is not the most well liked either.

All this being said I do not work at CLT. I work at Indy center in the altitudes generally above 10,000ft msl in the vicinity of PXV and IIU VORTACs. If you have any questions about our procedures there, feel free to ask away. If I don't know the answer, I'll find out for you(as long as the answer is not classified).

Oh and EDUC8 if you get an illegal clearance state the words: UNABLE, and do not comply with it.
 
Polarbear you said it best, I do my job and you do yours.... However you do your job in IND and not CLT. You know your SOPs at Indy I would assume inside and out, perhaps not CLT. We may not DO the ATC thing, but we know how things roll in CLT and what to expect and not to. We also know how things are done in NYC, PHL, IND, etc..... However I do know a lot of recent ATC hires whom are only high school degree hires. Funny thing is a lot were furloughed from those crummy regionals and are now bossing them around. At least they have one thing in their court that you and many did not. They have been in that world and understand it.

Honestly as a pilot I could not care less what you do. I may think you are over paid and another government employee. Neither really matters.... What matters is if you are the 30 year vet of ATC or a regional or major we all can make mistakes.... If you are a new ground controller or doing clerance delivery you can make mistakes like that FO at a major/regional as well..... The problem I have is when either act as if they cannot make a mistake..... I have personally worked with the Indy FSDO and CVG on a lot of various issues.... There are those whom think their crap does not stink and some whom are the best professionals you can meet...... None of which I dread in a jumpseat because at the end of the day I do my job how it is written down in the book.... Perhaps a landing might end up being rough from time to time, but the job is done safe and by the book. Thus bring on the FEDs they are more then welcome to sit in another jumpseat and find a quiet flightdeck when they ride along...

You can call the hint at the "required" education of an ATC new hire cheap. However with all the current pressure on the airlines, I personally would love more pressue be placed on ATC.... Many events each year happen that never find the front page but could easily find it. Yet the FAA seems to continue to go after pilots of all levels each year. And amazing how it finds the front page of a WSJ or USA Today.... But then again, I guess something such as Comair at LEX could not happen tomorrow to our well trained ATC hires??? True this situation there is blame to go all around from ATC to Pilot.....

Point is the education requirements I see of a new hire ATC is very limited.... The fact I can give you well over a dozen hires this past year with no college degree. Yet those same are getting paid fairly well and have the lifes of millions in their hands as well.... A simple vector error that puts you into an E190 in CLT could easily be avoided... And when you then tell them you are responding to a RA and you will need vectors out they try to force you back onto an approach??? Then when they come to find out it was their fault, you get asked by a supervisor, "We're not writting anything down, so we can call this a wash alright?" HELL NO we cannot...... People need to realize things need to be changed all around. Its not just the pilot, its the whole industry which includes those of you whom are sitting back getting a fancy check from the government and a pension that need to have some over hauling as well.... I am just hopeful that Mr. Babbit will draw attention to his very own orginization as well and call for the same change there......

Oh and by the way..... EDUC8-or answer to the posters question was accurate and exactly what they wanted to hear ;)!
 
meyers9163 said:
Polarbear you said it best, I do my job and you do yours.... However you do your job in IND and not CLT. You know your SOPs at Indy I would assume inside and out, perhaps not CLT. We may not DO the ATC thing, but we know how things roll in CLT and what to expect and not to. We also know how things are done in NYC, PHL, IND, etc.....
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Never claimed to be from CLT, specifically stated not at CLT. Gave an honest opinion of what could be the answer from the other side of the Mic.


meyers9163 said:
However I do know a lot of recent ATC hires whom are only high school degree hires. Funny thing is a lot were furloughed from those crummy regionals and are now bossing them around. At least they have one thing in their court that you and many did not. They have been in that world and understand it.
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Glad you know my experience and I have no idea what an airplane is. Thank you sir for stating I came straight from the high school flipping burgers at McDonald's. I had absolutely no idea what an airplane was before this job I'm just glad I got me an edumacation and a damn fine job because I'm so gosh darn lucky.:sarcasm:

All this time I thought I spent time before I was hired at these "crummy regionals"(AE and QX to be exact). Thank you for waking me up from my dream:sarcasm:

Granted not as a pilot, but as a mechanic with jumpseat privledges that I used quite often(I'm in no way implying I understand all aspects of your job, but when you've been around it quite often you pick some stuff up being in the cockpit a couple times a week). I am in no way qualified to fly your aircraft(Being on these boards and jumpseating is why I didn't jump to the flight deck), but saying I have no idea what you are going through is a bit of being on a high and mighty trip there.

I spent 10 years working for living before I got hired thank you very much.

If you can give me a fact based argument(Not theory like: "oh I know these b.s. argument") that college degrees=safer skies I'll be glad to listen, until then don't discount professionals based on what their education was. Hell I bet a college degree makes you fly a plane better too? Is that how I get my poop to smell better, get a college degree?

Don't get me wrong. Am I proud I never finished college? no. Do I advise not going to college? Hell no. But does that mean because someone doesn't have a degree they can't do a job as well or better than those with one? The process should be more difficult for those that are not military or have college degrees, but not cut off completely.

This is especially true for jobs like this in which what you did before means diddly squat. No prior training really helps to learn the job. I think it is very unfair to require someone to spend money to get an education for a job that has only one viable employment option.


meyers9163 said:
Point is the education requirements I see of a new hire ATC is very limited.... The fact I can give you well over a dozen hires this past year with no college degree. Yet those same are getting paid fairly well and have the lifes of millions in their hands as well.... A simple vector error that puts you into an E190 in CLT could easily be avoided... And when you then tell them you are responding to a RA and you will need vectors out they try to force you back onto an approach??? Then when they come to find out it was their fault, you get asked by a supervisor, "We're not writting anything down, so we can call this a wash alright?" HELL NO we cannot...... People need to realize things need to be changed all around. Its not just the pilot, its the whole industry which includes those of you whom are sitting back getting a fancy check from the government and a pension that need to have some over hauling as well.... I am just hopeful that Mr. Babbit will draw attention to his very own orginization as well and call for the same change there......
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The fact is that "dozen" you talk about is probably less than 1% of those hired, of those that you know it seems from earlier said they came from your "crummy" background giving them more knowledge of your position than the CTI that just came out of school not knowing what a VORTAC is.

The only way you could include a good majority that just have highschool is if you include the military hires. Now you want to discount them and take College grads before those guys that have actually been talking to airplanes and fighting for our country? All I can say is WOW. I believe in a college education, but thats extreme.

I can tell you I have polled close to 200 trainees at OKC and ZID in my time at both places. I can count on one hand how many I met with no college degree, no military. It's not a common occurence. Are they out there? yes, but unless they were hired prior to 1991 they are about as common as a hs only hire at United, Continental, Delta, etc.

Now take all those factors and add no college at all, I haven't even found that(I'm only 6 credits shy of an associates degree).
 
meyers9163 said:
You want to get started on ATC and more so CLT? :) We can go down that road..... Or all the high school graduates we now have bossing us around.... I give you that you work for them.... But the reasons as to why they could not depart that way were accurate as previously posted, were they not? I mean you talk to those in CLT and got a reason other then that? I'm seriously asking.... Because CLT could use a once over with their controllers... Perhaps we need to be even more strict on them in many regards, especially in CLT such as the before mentioned illegal clerances..... Heck there's a reason ATL center hates CLT..... It would appear CLT just cannot get things figured out.... Perhaps you could offer insight as to why CLT is such a cluter???

Ps... Why you are with the government employees of the FAA, could you ask them to get witht he NTSB and ask how the leaks of Colgan 3407, USairways 1549, and the most recent of a PSA flight in CRW managed to get out to the media ;)?
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I never once claimed to know anything about CLT. My post only stated that, while it may seem simple, you cannot always do what seems easiest for the pilots and ATC. There are SOP's, and when you have an airport that is busy, as the OP seemed to indicate, deviating from the SOP is not exactly an ideal situation. Did I ever argue that EDUC8-or was wrong, no! I simply stated that you can't always do what you want to do. Oh, and flying out of an airport every day does not mean you know what the ATC SOP states, it means that you know what to typically expect, and what typically happens. As far as CLT controllers being bad, I cannot comment on that, I have never had to deal with them in any way, and my post did not even imply that they are good, bad, or average, as a matter of fact, I did not even comment on CLT at all, I made blanket statements about ATC, SOP's, and ATC waivers. I did not imply that EDUC8-or does not know the normal routine at CLT, I'm sure he does, and know much more about that airport than I ever care to know. I also brought up a very good examply of why you don't deviate from your SOP when busy, without a very good reason, and making the life of the pilot and controller easier is not a good reason. I would have to guess that the controller would have loved to send the OP to 36R, but probably had his reasoning for not doing it. It is not as simply as two local controllers standing side by side agreeing to it. Again, it would require the departure, possibly two departure controllers being in on it, possibly someone working approach, oh and the guy working ground.

The problem with everyone that has posted here, is that non of us know the SOP, and waivers CLT has for ATC. EDUC8-or, I'm sorry if I implied you didn't know CLT inside and out (I know you have not replied again, but you may have read this), I'm sure you do, and you did bring up valid points. I just wanted to point out it is not always as easy as two controllers, sitting down, watching TV, sipping on coffee, and eating a donut, working it out:sarcasm:

meyers9163, I have an associates degree, a bachelors degree, and soon will have a masters degree. Is that good enough, or do I have too much education? I'm sorry you decided to take the time in your first post to put me down, based on my blanket ATC statements. Obviously, since I have never been to CLT, I don't have a clue about anything in the ATC world at CLT, only the pilots do.
 
Polarbear and clestudentpilot I appreciate the replies.... I guess here is my major issue right now with the whole ATC world and more so FAA. It has nothing to do with either of you in particular but it is a general thought/feeling I have been getting..... There is so much attentioned right now being drawn to the pilots and the airlines. And over all there is a valid reason to have such attention brought on us by the actions of a few.... However when it is a job that deals with the government, i.e. the FAA, the attention seems to get tossed onto the pilots or a strong push to keep it quiet when the "Government" messes up....

Neither of you are to blame but in the last year alone I have had issues where as a flight crew we had to be proactive and prevent something more from happening with mistakes of controllers. From in CLT getting placed right into an E190 on a heading, to being cleared to an altitude entirely too low in AVP, to having an American Eagle jet being placed on a vector that forced another RA in RDU.... Now I will not go into any great details, but each of those ended up with the Captain on the phone with the local controlling agency. Each time the supervisor admitted to their errors but encouraged a "wash" and thus implying "dont file an ASAP" or paperwork due to it being our error.... All three admitting their mistakes...

Now my question is what is done on a 6 month period to assure your training is being done? If a Captain of a Airline must be checked every 6 months on a PC/PT should the controllers not have such checks in which if they bust they are pulled off duty without pay?? Or better yet, what is being done as a WHOLE to address the safety and the errors that we as humans make from the FAA/ATC stand point? Perhaps it is being done in the background and we just are not seeing it... I may be ignorant and thus why I am asking. To me there has been so much attention as of late on flight crews, airlines safety etc... But if we are going to try to make this whole SYSTEM better, it also involves the government needing to step up and address as many serious issues as well with certain facilities and controllers (both as a whole). Is such being done right now and we just do not see it? And if so what is being done, can you give us (the pilots) some insight on such?
 
Let me just add that there are probably plenty of pilots besides myself that appreciate the input and insight from you ATC guys. Thanks.
 
meyers9163 said:
Polarbear and clestudentpilot I appreciate the replies.... I guess here is my major issue right now with the whole ATC world and more so FAA. It has nothing to do with either of you in particular but it is a general thought/feeling I have been getting..... There is so much attentioned right now being drawn to the pilots and the airlines. And over all there is a valid reason to have such attention brought on us by the actions of a few.... However when it is a job that deals with the government, i.e. the FAA, the attention seems to get tossed onto the pilots or a strong push to keep it quiet when the "Government" messes up....

Neither of you are to blame but in the last year alone I have had issues where as a flight crew we had to be proactive and prevent something more from happening with mistakes of controllers. From in CLT getting placed right into an E190 on a heading, to being cleared to an altitude entirely too low in AVP, to having an American Eagle jet being placed on a vector that forced another RA in RDU.... Now I will not go into any great details, but each of those ended up with the Captain on the phone with the local controlling agency. Each time the supervisor admitted to their errors but encouraged a "wash" and thus implying "dont file an ASAP" or paperwork due to it being our error.... All three admitting their mistakes...

Now my question is what is done on a 6 month period to assure your training is being done? If a Captain of a Airline must be checked every 6 months on a PC/PT should the controllers not have such checks in which if they bust they are pulled off duty without pay?? Or better yet, what is being done as a WHOLE to address the safety and the errors that we as humans make from the FAA/ATC stand point? Perhaps it is being done in the background and we just are not seeing it... I may be ignorant and thus why I am asking. To me there has been so much attention as of late on flight crews, airlines safety etc... But if we are going to try to make this whole SYSTEM better, it also involves the government needing to step up and address as many serious issues as well with certain facilities and controllers (both as a whole). Is such being done right now and we just do not see it? And if so what is being done, can you give us (the pilots) some insight on such?
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Controller here:
First let me say if the stories of the Suplervisors/FLM's trying to encourage a cover-up are true, than that is a serious problem. I certainly hope you filed an ASAP/NASA report and included that information in it. There is no excuse for covering anything up. I find it amazing that they even could. In my experience any instance of an RA requires an automatic QA review, that should be out of the supervisors hands.
Second, I think your portrayal of people without a college degree is a bit off-base. Like it was said before 90%+ of the controllers without a college degree are former military controllers(myself included) That means the 4 yrs+ the guys with degrees spent in college partying, the high school students were bossing military officers around, in essence practicing to get it right with you.
We make mistakes and by no means do I think those mistakes should be swept under a rug. But personally I think the the relationship between pilots and controllers should be as a team not as adversaries or one of boss/subordinate. To me that means when a pilot busts an altitude or doesn't follow an instruction, as long as there is no harm done, I will advise the pilot, issue a resolution and a subtle hint to file an ASAP/NASA report. That's it, I will not file a pilot deviation unless it is a recurring problem with a procedure which I believe contributes to it. I don't want to see anyone face severe consequences for a minor mistake.

Now onto your question of 6 month checks. We get quarterly(every 3 months) skill-checks(over-the-shoulder reviews) on every position. We have have constant recurring training on endless topics, usually averaging 2-3hrs per month on random things pertaining to ATC/Aviation, mostly this is computer based training. We also (and this is the reason I will never hide a mistake I made) have random audits done by the QA department of our radar/audio sessions. If they find you covered up an error you can lose your job. Not for the error but for covering it up.

Like I said I treat every pilot I talk to as my equal/teammate. (occasionally a dickhead will make me bear my teeth but that is a rare exception) I LOVE working with you guys every day. You guys/gals bear all the risk and I am there to do my best to help you minimize it. You do make some valid points about the increasingly low experience level of controllers, but I think your animosity towards controllers in general is misplaced.
 
So every three months there is a check on EVERY single ATC? Now what happens when and if a controller is not up to par on that day? Also are they random or do you know ahead? More so curious about this....

Secondly all of my three experiences there was indeed more then an implication for us to not write any of the above up.... I hear 2 of the 3 conversations due to the various Captains keeping the door closed and putting their phone on speaker so we both could verify what we were being told. Of which 2 of the 3 we did file an ASAP report due to the RA's..... The one in which the controller in AVP giving an altitude lower then should have, we never got to a point in which the situation was going to progress into something more due to situational awareness and flying with a 20+ year Captain.... We the controller started yelling due to the altitude we had already clicked the auto pilot off and stop the descent due to his knowledge of the area..... However that same event it took until we got back into PHL to speak with a supervisor due to them wanting to review the tapes and verify it was not our mistake. I assume because if it was not they wanted to figure out what happen.... At the end of the day the same implication was made them implying not to worry about it.... And they would correct such an issue (with training?) in the future with that particular controller (or so it was implied).

Again I am personally not in the game of trying to get anyone into trouble as we all know the SYSTEMS need work as a whole.... But it is when you get that one fun controller whom thinks he controls the world and thus your decisions are the ones whom you wish you could meet in a dark road sometime.... As I am sure with the three of you may have the same issues with various pilots on various days as well....
 
meyers9163 said:
So every three months there is a check on EVERY single ATC? Now what happens when and if a controller is not up to par on that day? Also are they random or do you know ahead? More so curious about this....

.
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As to the question does it happen to EVERY controller? It is supposed to but I would suspect it doesn't happen for every controller every three months. It is not a scheduled thing the procedure is once every quarter so hypothetically it could happen on the first day of a quarter and not again for 5 months and 29 days. In my case my supervisors won't notify me it is happening until they are done doing it. (they listen from a remote position).

You're going to have a bad apple subset in any group, controllers and pilots included.
 
quit the bickering guys it wasn't the intent of this post to start a pissing match.

As pilots we need to understand ATC's job better and they need to understand ours better. If we did that there could be more appreciation and understanding on both sides of the fence. I personally would like to see more ATC jumpseaters observing operations from the pilots point of view.

In College we had a program where you were an ATC controller for a day. Basically you got to plug in, observe, and be mentored by a senior controller. If it was slow enough you even got to do some of the work. It was a great eye opener as to what goes on with clearance, ground, tower, and departure/arrival controllers. ATC has the harder job most of the time, especially at the busy airports.
 
Bandit_Driver said:
quit the bickering guys it wasn't the intent of this post to start a pissing match.

As pilots we need to understand ATC's job better and they need to understand ours better. If we did that there could be more appreciation and understanding on both sides of the fence. I personally would like to see more ATC jumpseaters observing operations from the pilots point of view.

In College we had a program where you were an ATC controller for a day. Basically you got to plug in, observe, and be mentored by a senior controller. If it was slow enough you even got to do some of the work. It was a great eye opener as to what goes on with clearance, ground, tower, and departure/arrival controllers. ATC has the harder job most of the time, especially at the busy airports.
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They really need to to get the fam flight program back in effect. Stupid TSA has been the roadblock for that though.
 
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