WSJ Article on PSA at CRW

ClearedToThe

Well-Known Member
A fundamental breakdown of pilot discipline, including personal conversation in the cockpit, apparently was the major reason a US Airways commuter plane ran off the end of a West Virginia runway last month, according to industry officials.

Now, three weeks after the nonfatal incident, the circumstances are prompting extensive discussion and concern among pilots and safety experts, who consider it the latest example of cockpit distraction and erosion of pilot discipline.

The Jan. 19 event involved a twin-engine Bombardier jet that ran off the runway at Yeager Airport in Charleston, W. Va., after pilots abandoned takeoff. Operated by PSA Airlines Inc., a unit of US Airways Group Inc., the plane was damaged when it smashed into a crushable concrete safety zone at the end of the strip. None of the 34 people aboard was hurt, and the incident has generated relatively little media attention.

But among many safety experts, it is viewed as the latest example of a loss of pilot focus, and a symbol of what some regulators believe is a broader problem of lack of pilot professionalism.

A US Airways spokesman said the airline is cooperating fully with the National Transportation Safety Board’s investigation and has launched its own probe. But he declined to comment about specifics. The spokesman also said the two pilots, whose names haven’t been released, were placed on administrative leave and taken off flying duties, as is normal after such an event.

PSA Airlines hasn’t had a fatal accident or incident since it became part of US Airways, or what was then called USAir, in 1995.
Preliminary data collected from the cockpit voice recorder indicates that prior to the botched takeoff, the two pilots of US Airways Express Flight 2495 engaged in stretches of nonpertinent chatter that didn’t deal with flight preparations, checklists or pilot tasks, according to industry officials familiar with the details.

Pilots are strictly prohibited from engaging in such private, extraneous conversations during critical phases of flight, particularly takeoff, descent and landing.

A spokesman for the safety board declined to comment on the investigation.

The board’s probe comes at a time when Randy Babbitt, the head of Federal Aviation Administration, is stressing the importance of maintaining pilot professionalism and avoiding distractions behind the controls. Mr. Babbbitt, for example, told a House aviation subcommittee last week that the FAA is looking for methods to transfer the experience of veteran aviators to younger commuter pilots. He said such programs are an "important way to raise professional standards and improve cockpit discipline."

Industry officials describe the following sequence of events on Flight 2495. Before starting the takeoff roll, the crew is believed to have incorrectly set the flaps -- movable panels at the rear of the wings that provide essential lift. As the jet accelerated down the runway, reached almost 100 miles per hour and its front landing gear was lifting off the ground, the crew realized the mistake, according to these officials. The pilots quickly readjusted the flaps, prompting an automated cockpit warning to abandon takeoff. The crew then tried but failed to stop the jet before it rolled into the safety area.

Pilots said it is generally considered unsafe and quite unusual to adjust flap settings during takeoff. Airlines typically train crews to work together to handle so-called rejected takeoffs, including practicing decisions about what speeds and runway conditions make it safer to continue climbing instead of slowing down and attempting to stop.
Write to Andy Pasztor at andy.pasztor@wsj.com

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704820904575056084012937888.html?mod=googlenews_wsj

Sounds like they had flaps 8 set (no doubt, out of habit) when they had the Vspeeds and power settings calculated for flaps 20. Let's not get complacent and fall into a hazardous "routine".

Should be interesting to see what the NTSB finds.
 
Wait...would the thing really not rotate with flaps 8 on this runway? If I remember correctly, the speeds/distances between a flaps 9 and a flaps 22 takeoff in the ERJ were not that far apart, and while you might have some problems if you bang an engine, there had been guys that had done the exact same thing that took off with no problem with both engines running, not realizing what they did until they were cleaning the flaps up after takeoff.
 
Wait...would the thing really not rotate with flaps 8 on this runway? If I remember correctly, the speeds/distances between a flaps 9 and a flaps 22 takeoff in the ERJ were not that far apart, and while you might have some problems if you bang an engine, there had been guys that had done the exact same thing that took off with no problem with both engines running, not realizing what they did until they were cleaning the flaps up after takeoff.

There are two takeoff flap settings on the CRJ--8 and 20. Takeoff speeds are quite different (15+kts). A flaps 8 takeoff eats up a whole lot more runway, and CRW isn't that long...
 
Huh, that's interesting.

I'll bet a flaps 8 takeoff uses less runway than aborting after V1 :)

It will be very interesting to see if the abort actually did happen after V1. The article says it was "approaching 100 mph" (85 kts), which is *way* less than any V1 I've seen--normally we're in the 115-135 range for flaps 20. I have a hard time believing an abort at 120+ kts would worked out OK in CRW, even with the EMAS.

I'd hope we can all agree that anonymous leaks on active investigations aren't a good thing.
 
There are two takeoff flap settings on the CRJ--8 and 20. Takeoff speeds are quite different (15+kts). A flaps 8 takeoff eats up a whole lot more runway, and CRW isn't that long...

I just do not personally see a crew "freaking" out and putting the flaps in during a roll..... Pilots know what happens when you change the configuration, or shoud, and I just do not see this being factual information.... The WSJ should be ashamed for publishing such an article without one shread of factual information from a prem or complete report from the NTSB.... They should be ashamed....
 
The difference and reason why they had to do a 20 vs 8 TO has to do with either the accelerate stop distance or a climb issue....Both most likely come into play on a S.E (pretty rare). Had they continued with an 8, not had a failed engine they would have not eaten up the whole rwy or banged into an obstacle......................now if they did pop one, who knows.
 
I just do not personally see a crew "freaking" out and putting the flaps in during a roll..... Pilots know what happens when you change the configuration, or shoud, and I just do not see this being factual information.... The WSJ should be ashamed for publishing such an article without one shread of factual information from a prem or complete report from the NTSB.... They should be ashamed....

:yeahthat:

No other comment.
 
It will be very interesting to see if the abort actually did happen after V1. The article says it was "approaching 100 mph" (85 kts), which is *way* less than any V1 I've seen--normally we're in the 115-135 range for flaps 20.

The article also said that the nosewheel was coming off the ground. So either the article is incorrect about that, or they were incorrect about the speed.
 
It will be very interesting to see if the abort actually did happen after V1. The article says it was "approaching 100 mph" (85 kts), which is *way* less than any V1 I've seen--normally we're in the 115-135 range for flaps 20. I have a hard time believing an abort at 120+ kts would worked out OK in CRW, even with the EMAS.


almost 100 miles per hour and its front landing gear was lifting off the ground

Rotating at 85 kts? This whole thing does not compute.
 
Andy, I know you read the forum here so:
Half of the things cited in your article do not even make sense to even the greenest of Airline pilots.... Since I despise it when journalists use second hand, information in the interest of sensational Headlines. (the Falshoods end up on page One, retraction on the bottom of page 34....type of reporting) I have some questions for you? Did you have access to the CVR?, or did someone tell you what was on it? Where did you get that info. HMMM???

1. 85 knots and nosewheel up (come on), can you prove that or is it more of your typical printed hearsay? By the way I believe rotation on the CRJ is more like about 120 kts, not 85 (100 mph).
2. Pilots talking trash during takeoff, I think once again you are going on hearsay. Your exact words were:
Preliminary data collected from the cockpit voice recorder indicates that prior to the botched takeoff, the two pilots of US Airways Express Flight 2495 engaged in stretches of nonpertinent chatter that didn't deal with flight preparations, checklists or pilot tasks, according to industry officials familiar with the details. (Really what Officials, I love that line about industry officials familier with the case, your protecting your sources, pretty convenient for you, absolves you from having to verify anything)
3. Pilots adding flaps during rotation and getting an abort message (again have you already seen an FDR report, can you provide it)? I happen to know on the aircraft that I fly, I will get a configuration message requiring an abort the moment one thrust (power) lever goes to full power, if the flaps or trims are out of spec. For you to intimate that they didnt even realize until rotation speed I would say that is very very unlikely.


ANDY where is your proof, if you have some proof the rest of the world doesnt have then cough it up, otherwise wait for the reports. It would appear you have problems with premature ejac--- (I mean editorials).
 
Andy, I know you read the forum here so:
Half of the things cited in your article do not even make sense to even the greenest of Airline pilots.... Since I despise it when journalists use second hand, information in the interest of sensational Headlines. (the Falshoods end up on page One, retraction on the bottom of page 34....type of reporting) I have some questions for you? Did you have access to the CVR?, or did someone tell you what was on it? Where did you get that info. HMMM???

1. 85 knots and nosewheel up (come on), can you prove that or is it more of your typical printed hearsay? By the way I believe rotation on the CRJ is more like about 120 kts, not 85 (100 mph).
2. Pilots talking trash during takeoff, I think once again you are going on hearsay. Your exact words were:
Preliminary data collected from the cockpit voice recorder indicates that prior to the botched takeoff, the two pilots of US Airways Express Flight 2495 engaged in stretches of nonpertinent chatter that didn't deal with flight preparations, checklists or pilot tasks, according to industry officials familiar with the details. (Really what Officials, I love that line about industry officials familier with the case, your protecting your sources, pretty convenient for you, absolves you from having to verify anything)
3. Pilots adding flaps during rotation and getting an abort message (again have you already seen an FDR report, can you provide it)? I happen to know on the aircraft that I fly, I will get a configuration message requiring an abort the moment one thrust (power) lever goes to full power, if the flaps or trims are out of spec. For you to intimate that they didnt even realize until rotation speed I would say that is very very unlikely.


ANDY where is your proof, if you have some proof the rest of the world doesnt have then cough it up, otherwise wait for the reports. It would appear you have problems with premature ejac--- (I mean editorials).

Thank you Nigel.... FYI if it were a FLAP 8... they would not rotate until 130-140's.... With Flaps 20 it would be more around the 120 range to 130..... But funny thing is there's a taxi check that verifies the flaps are configured correctly before you take the runway with the ACARS data that was provided to use... Also you can then double check it with the toll cards..... :)

Ironic thing is I have yet to fly with a Captain that talked during the take off roll..... And being a low man on the pole and flying with many Captains, I must say I find it hard to believe there are Captains that do this (especially the CA that was on this flight I HIGHLY doubt). Hell I'd be willing to bet my year salary on it (20k :P)...... This Andy reporter needs to be taken out back and beaten... Anyone want to take a road trip??? (JOKING OF COURSE!!!!)
 
Thank you Nigel.... FYI if it were a FLAP 8... they would not rotate until 130-140's.... With Flaps 20 it would be more around the 120 range to 130..... But funny thing is there's a taxi check that verifies the flaps are configured correctly before you take the runway with the ACARS data that was provided to use... Also you can then double check it with the toll cards..... :)

Ironic thing is I have yet to fly with a Captain that talked during the take off roll..... And being a low man on the pole and flying with many Captains, I must say I find it hard to believe there are Captains that do this (especially the CA that was on this flight I HIGHLY doubt). Hell I'd be willing to bet my year salary on it (20k :P)...... This Andy reporter needs to be taken out back and beaten... Anyone want to take a road trip??? (JOKING OF COURSE!!!!)

You hang around long enough and you realize that Andy Pasztor is a man who likes to hear himself speak. He loves to sensationalize negativity in aviation. I know of other articles that he has written about aviation that are similar to this one, but he was very careful about his wording, so legally he can stand right on the line with out crossing it. He would say something like "(According to some sources within the industry, this person embodies everything that is wrong with honest journalism.:D )" He stays just on the right side of legal, and he's good at what he does, you have to give him that, I personally think its his personal code of ethics that is bankrupt.
 
Does the CRJ give a takeoff warning if the flaps are set at 8 instead of the planned 20? Does the computer know that the crew planned 20?
 
Thank you Nigel.... FYI if it were a FLAP 8... they would not rotate until 130-140's.... With Flaps 20 it would be more around the 120 range to 130..... But funny thing is there's a taxi check that verifies the flaps are configured correctly before you take the runway with the ACARS data that was provided to use... Also you can then double check it with the toll cards..... :)

What are toll cards
 
Does the CRJ give a takeoff warning if the flaps are set at 8 instead of the planned 20? Does the computer know that the crew planned 20?
Thats actually a question I would like to know, my aircraft only has 1 take off flap setting. I would assume since you probably program in the weights, that it would some kind of flap config warning.
 
The article also said that the nosewheel was coming off the ground. So either the article is incorrect about that, or they were incorrect about the speed.

Yup. The author was blatantly wrong at least about one thing. Or maybe both.
 
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