To make it CLEAR.......

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

but you CAN walk off the airplane as an FO if you disagree with his decisions.

You shouldn't be doing this unless it's for reasons of safety. Just not liking the guy, thinking he's a jerk, etc. are not valid reasons for walking off of a flight. Part of being a professional is knowing how to deal with fellow pilots that you don't exactly get along with.

But again, safety of flight is a whole 'nother story.

 

[SpiraMirabilis]

Sure, you can walk off the plane if you're an FO, you can also call the captain a nancy boy, punch him in the face, etc etc...

Just because you can do something doesn't mean you should or that there won't be consequences.

There is going to be bad consequences for SOMEBODY if you walk off the plane. If it is safety of flight related and you're right they'll probably land on the Captain, if not they'll try to land on you.

 

[surreal1221]

Some don't know how to be subordinate when time requires it - or more appropriately - to respect the commander's decision.

Perhaps a few weeks in the military just to figure out how to shut your mouth and play your part is needed.

 

[mikecweb]

Some don't know how to be subordinate when time requires it - or more appropriately - to respect the commander's decision.

Perhaps a few weeks in the military just to figure out how to shut your mouth and play your part is needed.

Or common sense. Either one...

 

[surreal1221]

Or common sense. Either one...

Fair enough.

But, unfortunately as it appears, there is no real deterrent to an FO acting against the Commander's wishes. So, none of them really learn how to just shut up and play their part in making the machine known as Part 121 flying work.

 

[meyers9163]

Fair enough.

But, unfortunately as it appears, there is no real deterrent to an FO acting against the Commander's wishes. So, none of them really learn how to just shut up and play their part in making the machine known as Part 121 flying work.

Perhaps for a JS yes... But again remember why CRM has devloped into what it is today....


Remember the tragedy at Tenerife..... (if not perhaps you need to go watch the re-plays asnd videos out there by the FAA). I know at PSA we see it quite often when CRM is discussed.....

 

[Kingairer]

Really, you're going to walk off the flight because someone got denied a jumpseat? A seat that you have zero say in?Thats not going to be an easy one to explain when the flight is delayed or canceld..... Quit giving yourself heartburn over every little thing, and enjoy one of the good parts of being an FO (remember the 3 stripes stand for "Not my problem"). Its funny people talking about walking off the plane before youve even flown a flight on the trip yet...it sounds to me of someone who has power envy and in an attempt to level the playing field says "well ill just walk off the plane". Dont concern yourself with this issues, its not your problem.

 

[meyers9163]

Mark what was your point in this thread? Just another rant by you? I know you and your Colgan pilots use this forum a lot because you do not have your own company one, but really? Was it just to show off that you have that extra stripe? You have yet to comment as to why you started this pissing match....

 

[meyers9163]

Really, you're going to walk off the flight because someone got denied a jumpseat? A seat that you have zero say in?Thats not going to be an easy one to explain when the flight is delayed or canceld..... Quit giving yourself heartburn over every little thing, and enjoy one of the good parts of being an FO (remember the 3 stripes stand for "Not my problem"). Its funny people talking about walking off the plane before youve even flown a flight on the trip yet...it sounds to me of someone who has power envy and in an attempt to level the playing field says "well ill just walk off the plane". Dont concern yourself with this issues, its not your problem.

I like the 3 stripes.... Others we've come up with from flying with captains...

I DO EVERYTHING
I KNOW NOTHING
NOT MY JOB (dont like this one, but its whatever)
NEED MORE MONEY


The list keeps going.....

4 stripes....ah we wont go down that road...... How's that big bad E190?

 

[falconvalley]

You just gotta pick your battles.

 

[stuckingfk]

Fair enough.

But, unfortunately as it appears, there is no real deterrent to an FO acting against the Commander's wishes. So, none of them really learn how to just shut up and play their part in making the machine known as Part 121 flying work.

This isn't a post against you but the post made me think of it.

One of the major problems with the seniority based system is allowing first officers to upgrade that shouldn't be a captain. I've flown with plenty of guys that have zero business being a captain. No commandibility, lack of basic IFR knowledge, poor flying skills, etc.

Hard to fix this problem but it does exist.

 

[jtrain609]

This isn't a post against you but the post made me think of it.

One of the major problems with the seniority based system is allowing first officers to upgrade that shouldn't be a captain. I've flown with plenty of guys that have zero business being a captain. No commandibility, lack of basic IFR knowledge, poor flying skills, etc.

Hard to fix this problem but it does exist.

It's not that hard to fix.

Captains need to get pass upgrade training, a PC, a fed ride and OE. There are plenty of places to send the guy back to the right seat.

If the company doesn't pursue those avenues, then it's the company's problem.

 

[stuckingfk]

It's not that hard to fix.

Captains need to get pass upgrade training, a PC, a fed ride and OE. There are plenty of places to send the guy back to the right seat.

If the company doesn't pursue those avenues, then it's the company's problem.

They still get through the cracks.

Otherwise there would be no problems right?

 

[RPM]

This isn't a post against you but the post made me think of it.

One of the major problems with the seniority based system is allowing first officers to upgrade that shouldn't be a captain. I've flown with plenty of guys that have zero business being a captain.

Hard to fix this problem but it does exist.

AGREED!

I flew with the most worthless excuse for a Captain EVER a couple weeks ago. He has been fired TWICE in his 23 yrs at my airline and there is a rather large list of people that refuse to fly with him, myself included now. Yet ALPA continues to get him his job back. One of those times was for trying to fly DRUNK. Yet somehow going through a 2yr joke of a rehab program makes that acceptable. It is a complete joke how the system works. This guy has no common sense, makes his own rules and procedures which make absolutely no sense by the way, he wastes an enormous amount of fuel with his asinine self made up reduced thrust climb profiles (I calculated it out since we had a disagreement on it.. it averaged out to be just a hair over 500lbs waste per flight out of all our flights, add that up over a year, works out to be about 150K in pure waste per yr. based on what we currently pay for fuel! That is about 1.5 million dollars he has cost the company over the last 10 yrs doing this.) There is ZERO CRM with this guy, and I do mean ZERO. As far as he is concerned there is no reason for the FO to be there other than to yell at them for doing EVERYTHING wrong "according to him" not according to the company manual. Limitations get busted on every one of his flying legs, safety of flight issues, yelling and cursing at the FO so loud that the flight attendants call up front to see whats going on.

I should have known at the first pre-flight brief when he said "look, forget everything you know or think you know.. it's wrong, Im old School and I know how to fly this thing so we are gonna do it my way.. those people at the schoolhouse don't know nothing about the real world. Stick around and you might learn somethin" I am not kidding.. this is exactly what he said. It instantly reminded me of our video in training about poor CRM. Several days later I got off the trip after numerous safety of flight issues along with about 200 other major disagreements.

I hear from the office this guy has a file about 4" thick.. yet he continues to work here somehow..

 

[RPM]

It's not that hard to fix.

Captains need to get pass upgrade training, a PC, a fed ride and OE. There are plenty of places to send the guy back to the right seat.

If the company doesn't pursue those avenues, then it's the company's problem.

The problem is they fake it through the checkrides then go back to their old ways as soon as they hit the line again. Any moron with no leadership ability whatsoever can pass a canned memorized checkride.

 

[stuckingfk]

AGREED!

I flew with the most worthless excuse for a Captain EVER a couple weeks ago. He has been fired TWICE in his 23 yrs at my airline and there is a rather large list of people that refuse to fly with him, myself included now. Yet ALPA continues to get him his job back. One of those times was for trying to fly DRUNK. Yet somehow going through a 2yr joke of a rehab program makes that acceptable. It is a complete joke how the system works. This guy has no common sense, makes his own rules and procedures which make absolutely no sense by the way, he wastes an enormous amount of fuel with his asinine self made up reduced thrust climb profiles (I calculated it out since we had a disagreement on it.. it averaged out to be just a hair over 500lbs waste per flight out of all our flights, add that up over a year, works out to be about 150K in pure waste per yr. based on what we currently pay for fuel! That is about 1.5 million dollars he has cost the company over the last 10 yrs doing this.) There is ZERO CRM with this guy, and I do mean ZERO. As far as he is concerned there is no reason for the FO to be there other than to yell at them for doing EVERYTHING wrong "according to him" not according to the company manual. Limitations get busted on every one of his flying legs, safety of flight issues, yelling and cursing at the FO so loud that the flight attendants call up front to see whats going on.

I should have known at the first pre-flight brief when he said "look, forget everything you know or think you know.. it's wrong, Im old School and I know how to fly this thing so we are gonna do it my way.. those people at the schoolhouse don't know nothing about the real world. Stick around and you might learn somethin" I am not kidding.. this is exactly what he said. It instantly reminded me of our video in training about poor CRM. Several days later I got off the trip after numerous safety of flight issues along with about 200 other major disagreements.

I hear from the office this guy has a file about 4" thick.. yet he continues to work here somehow..

Sounds like a real winner.

I haven't had anything that bad, yet.

 

[RPM]

Sounds like a real winner.

I haven't had anything that bad, yet.

Honestly, I went into the situation with a positive attitude, knowing before the trip started that this guy had a "reputation".. I have heard stories over the yrs about him.. but usually when I fly with "those" Captains that I hear horrible things about, I still manage to get along with them OK with no issues... This Guy was the exception. It was ridiculous..

Funny thing is my Captain I am with now said the best thing about him upgrading is he would never have to fly with that guy again.. all his stories were congruent with mine.. his last trip with that guy ended up in the CP office as well. Lol:insane:

 

[Gonzo]

but you CAN walk off the airplane as an FO if you disagree with his decisions. I've done it twice.. and have NO problem doing it again. As long as you have a "good" reason it's not even an issue with the CP. I have never been questioned on this or even been remotely threatened with termination, The PIC was the one who was questioned on his poor decisions/actions, not me. Not that I would ever consider walking off over something as minor as a jumpseat denial.. just saying..

AGREED!

I flew with the most worthless excuse for a Captain EVER a couple weeks ago. He has been fired TWICE in his 23 yrs at my airline and there is a rather large list of people that refuse to fly with him, myself included now. Yet ALPA continues to get him his job back. One of those times was for trying to fly DRUNK. Yet somehow going through a 2yr joke of a rehab program makes that acceptable. It is a complete joke how the system works. This guy has no common sense, makes his own rules and procedures which make absolutely no sense by the way, he wastes an enormous amount of fuel with his asinine self made up reduced thrust climb profiles (I calculated it out since we had a disagreement on it.. it averaged out to be just a hair over 500lbs waste per flight out of all our flights, add that up over a year, works out to be about 150K in pure waste per yr. based on what we currently pay for fuel! That is about 1.5 million dollars he has cost the company over the last 10 yrs doing this.) There is ZERO CRM with this guy, and I do mean ZERO. As far as he is concerned there is no reason for the FO to be there other than to yell at them for doing EVERYTHING wrong "according to him" not according to the company manual. Limitations get busted on every one of his flying legs, safety of flight issues, yelling and cursing at the FO so loud that the flight attendants call up front to see whats going on.

I should have known at the first pre-flight brief when he said "look, forget everything you know or think you know.. it's wrong, Im old School and I know how to fly this thing so we are gonna do it my way.. those people at the schoolhouse don't know nothing about the real world. Stick around and you might learn somethin" I am not kidding.. this is exactly what he said. It instantly reminded me of our video in training about poor CRM. Several days later I got off the trip after numerous safety of flight issues along with about 200 other major disagreements.

I hear from the office this guy has a file about 4" thick.. yet he continues to work here somehow..

So was it GV, RG, CS, JB, or CM?

You shouldn't be doing this unless it's for reasons of safety. Just not liking the guy, thinking he's a jerk, etc. are not valid reasons for walking off of a flight. Part of being a professional is knowing how to deal with fellow pilots that you don't exactly get along with.

But again, safety of flight is a whole 'nother story.

There is a list of a few (5) CA in ORD that the CP has no problem with FOs walking off a trip.

 

[RPM]

So was it GV, RG, CS, JB, or CM?





There is a list of a few (5) CA in ORD that the CP has no problem with FOs walking off a trip.

Hah.. well make that list 6 for EC.. lol.. Hah, my buddy just flew with GV yesterday and seriously about got into a fist fight with him lol.. He got off that trip. That guy is a real winner.. He is actually pretty cool outside of the airplane oddly enough but at work he is a nightmare.. Total personality shift. That guy makes up his own rules as well.. most of them are retarded. I love how he never exceeds 200knts EVER and as soon as the mains touch down on the runway, flaps are coming up, bleed configuration gets changed, Anti Ice ENG on to clear the sensors lol.. all before the nose wheel even touches down.. yeah..

I actually dont mind flying with CS.. he's a compulsive liar but sorta entertaining haha.. wasnt nearly as bad as I expected after yrs of stories I heard, he's actually a nice guy. You know, for a Navy Seal that has a multiple degree's from MIT and teaches at Auburn and fixes the problem with the space shuttle tiles.. Im amazed he has the time to get to the middle east to punch out camels still! Must be nice being a millionaire pumpkin farming kingpin relaxing by your 37ft deep swimming pool between secret ops missions and embraer flights.

 

[SteveC]

There is a list of a few (5) CA in ORD that the CP has no problem with FOs walking off a trip.

I cannot comprehend how guys like that are still on the payroll.