SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
Agreed. If someone is going to get you killed or violated, then that's where you draw the line. Otherwise, respectfully voice your opinion, but he makes the call.
To make it CLEAR.......
- Thread starter Seggy
- Start date
Agreed. If someone is going to get you killed or violated, then that's where you draw the line. Otherwise, respectfully voice your opinion, but he makes the call.
SpiraMirabilis
Possible Subversive
I think ATN is the kind of Captain I wouldn't mind at all to fly with, who isn't afraid to delay a flight so his crew can get a meal, who has enough experience as a PIC to not be intimidated into flying a broken airplane, who will stand up for his crew and with his background of being a status rep and officer at various airlines knows how to do it effectively.
Those are just some of the things I know he's done in the past. I think some people just see that he is a strong supporter of ALPA, and considering he is not anonymous it would be an incredible surprise if he wasn't, and they just project their negative feelings about ALPA in particular or trade unionism in general onto him because he is not shy. I've never met him in person, although I'd like to go to NJC, but if I do I bet I could get along with him amicably.
Those are just some of the things I know he's done in the past. I think some people just see that he is a strong supporter of ALPA, and considering he is not anonymous it would be an incredible surprise if he wasn't, and they just project their negative feelings about ALPA in particular or trade unionism in general onto him because he is not shy. I've never met him in person, although I'd like to go to NJC, but if I do I bet I could get along with him amicably.
Nick
Well-Known Member
MikeD -
Sure I will elaborate.
Had a very long duty day of about 14-hours followed by a short layover. We had discussed on one leg, the BA thing mentioned somewhere in this thread or another. In the same conversation, discussed how some are trying so hard to make things better while others are zero help whatsoever and if a union gets to the point of concluding a strike is the only remaining course of action, there are people lined up and the whole cause to improve things is futile. We talked about how it effected us even that long day and short layover, because our contract does not go beyond FAR limits for most things, which we all know are often not adequate.
I was based at EWR for a year and a half and shared a crashpad with CAL pilots. 9 of them, and me, the young new hire at a vendor that had their paint scheme on the jets I flew. They were great to hang out with and as any crashpad of legacy airline pilots would have, they had a wealth of experience. Plenty of times, in the living room some topic of the suckiness of their contract would come up and most of those guys were around in 1983. They remember suicides, divorces, people having all sorts of problems due to Lorenzo's absolutely horrific management tactics and yet there was a big chunk of their pilot group that was okay with helping Lorenzo out to enhance their own personal situation with zero regard for the amount of disruption they were causing to the group that was trying to have some leverage against what was basically an evil man abusing the system.
So, these guys would talk all about how years later, today even, there are still some things that are they are behind in, contractually for example, because of the past and those that are still at the company with that mentality. With no threat of bankruptcy, voting in concessions that had them taking crew rest from 2AM to 4AM in three coach seats instead of a proper rest area or business class seat. Or having six exhausting, unproductive transatlantic crossings with no relief pilot in the month only to have to go to Houston on a few of their 12 days off for recurrent. Getting paid half for deadheads that last 8 hours. A bad PBS system. The list goes on. Bottom line is, they were not happy with the contract and their frustration with those who didn't help the effort to improve things was very apparent.
After the PIC and I talked about the futility of raising the bar (and not asking for the world, just stuff like pay that you can live off of, etc.) and the sad fact of replacement workers standing by, it was still on our minds when we had two off-line jumpseaters trying to get on our oversold flight.
One was not very friendly and one was. The unfriendly one had checked in first and he informed us that he had the jumpseat; he had listed at the gate first. The friendly one was apparently just waiting around to see if he'd get offered one of our flight attendant jumpseats. We are not permitted to have either of them sit in the galley but he may have not known that or he might have lucked out and had some crews that allowed him to do that before.
We had some time on the plane between flights and I had been online via boingo in the cockpit at the gate for a few minutes because I could pickup the wifi signal from the terminal a little. I had my laptop already open on my knees. PIC walks in and says how the one guy was a bit of a jerk and wondered if he was just the type of person we had been discussing. Yes, he was, on the jumpseat form was his full name and that name was also on the scab list. I suppose he just picked the wrong day, and the wrong flight to try and ride, and act not really that polite. PIC informed the other jumpseater that he was welcome to sit in the cockpit jumpseat, and told the scab to please take another flight. Flight went out full, with the cockpit j/s occupied. So before anyone jumps to conclusions, I am not in favor of jumpseat wars but this was an instance where the scab was just not gonna get a ride with the other guy standing there.
Sure I will elaborate.
Had a very long duty day of about 14-hours followed by a short layover. We had discussed on one leg, the BA thing mentioned somewhere in this thread or another. In the same conversation, discussed how some are trying so hard to make things better while others are zero help whatsoever and if a union gets to the point of concluding a strike is the only remaining course of action, there are people lined up and the whole cause to improve things is futile. We talked about how it effected us even that long day and short layover, because our contract does not go beyond FAR limits for most things, which we all know are often not adequate.
I was based at EWR for a year and a half and shared a crashpad with CAL pilots. 9 of them, and me, the young new hire at a vendor that had their paint scheme on the jets I flew. They were great to hang out with and as any crashpad of legacy airline pilots would have, they had a wealth of experience. Plenty of times, in the living room some topic of the suckiness of their contract would come up and most of those guys were around in 1983. They remember suicides, divorces, people having all sorts of problems due to Lorenzo's absolutely horrific management tactics and yet there was a big chunk of their pilot group that was okay with helping Lorenzo out to enhance their own personal situation with zero regard for the amount of disruption they were causing to the group that was trying to have some leverage against what was basically an evil man abusing the system.
So, these guys would talk all about how years later, today even, there are still some things that are they are behind in, contractually for example, because of the past and those that are still at the company with that mentality. With no threat of bankruptcy, voting in concessions that had them taking crew rest from 2AM to 4AM in three coach seats instead of a proper rest area or business class seat. Or having six exhausting, unproductive transatlantic crossings with no relief pilot in the month only to have to go to Houston on a few of their 12 days off for recurrent. Getting paid half for deadheads that last 8 hours. A bad PBS system. The list goes on. Bottom line is, they were not happy with the contract and their frustration with those who didn't help the effort to improve things was very apparent.
After the PIC and I talked about the futility of raising the bar (and not asking for the world, just stuff like pay that you can live off of, etc.) and the sad fact of replacement workers standing by, it was still on our minds when we had two off-line jumpseaters trying to get on our oversold flight.
One was not very friendly and one was. The unfriendly one had checked in first and he informed us that he had the jumpseat; he had listed at the gate first. The friendly one was apparently just waiting around to see if he'd get offered one of our flight attendant jumpseats. We are not permitted to have either of them sit in the galley but he may have not known that or he might have lucked out and had some crews that allowed him to do that before.
We had some time on the plane between flights and I had been online via boingo in the cockpit at the gate for a few minutes because I could pickup the wifi signal from the terminal a little. I had my laptop already open on my knees. PIC walks in and says how the one guy was a bit of a jerk and wondered if he was just the type of person we had been discussing. Yes, he was, on the jumpseat form was his full name and that name was also on the scab list. I suppose he just picked the wrong day, and the wrong flight to try and ride, and act not really that polite. PIC informed the other jumpseater that he was welcome to sit in the cockpit jumpseat, and told the scab to please take another flight. Flight went out full, with the cockpit j/s occupied. So before anyone jumps to conclusions, I am not in favor of jumpseat wars but this was an instance where the scab was just not gonna get a ride with the other guy standing there.
SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
Well done.
meyers9163
Well-Known Member
Where is this "list" and how was it created over the years? In this regards, if one pilot regardless of being on a scab list or not, is being a jerk and not polite. And the other pilot continues to be professional and polite, I do not think anyone could remotely question why you would take one and not the other.....
surreal1221
Well-Known Member
Funny how scabs are always acting like a fool.
The list is readily available, I know a couple of us have it and also had it available on our PDAs/iPhones. It is in pdf file format.
The list is readily available, I know a couple of us have it and also had it available on our PDAs/iPhones. It is in pdf file format.
Nick
Well-Known Member
Right, I agree.
This is actually the second time this situation has happened to me in my short career.
Baronman
Well-Known Member
I wouldn't get so worked up about. You're not guilty by association. Pretty much everyone knows it's the Captain who deals with (admin.) the JS, the FO says Hi and shakes hands, that's about it. If I boarded your flight and the CA denied me for some reason, I'd have no beef with you because I know you have nothing to do with it.....
B767
Well-Known Member
RPM
Well-Known Member
but you CAN walk off the airplane as an FO if you disagree with his decisions. I've done it twice.. and have NO problem doing it again. As long as you have a "good" reason it's not even an issue with the CP. I have never been questioned on this or even been remotely threatened with termination, The PIC was the one who was questioned on his poor decisions/actions, not me. Not that I would ever consider walking off over something as minor as a jumpseat denial.. just saying..
I wouldn't recommend calling in sick though then changing the story later.. That is a terrible idea. Call your CP or scheduling if there is a problem or a personality conflict. More than likely you will be off the trip or reassigned in a matter of minutes and its a non-issue.. as these type of Captain's are usually "WELL" known in the office for their previous actions already. (Trust me, you have to be a real F-Up to get -me- to walk off an airplane!) Its very frustrating that "certain" Captains hang on to their jobs or get their jobs back after being fired ONLY because of the Union protections..
meyers9163
Well-Known Member
True true..... And nothing prevents you from walking right behind them and making it clear that you are not part of that decision..... If it is indeed for no reason.
surreal1221
Well-Known Member
I think the point is that it is irrelevant for you to make it clear that you are not part of that decision.
It doesn't matter, because you're not part of the decision one way or another unless directly asked for it by the CA.
It's a moot point for you to feel some sort of guilt that you feel you should get up and let the denied JS'r know you didn't have a part in the CA's decision.
Always great to hear the rest of the story. Being polite does go a long way.
I don't ever remember, with the number of times I JSd back in the day, ever coming onboard and "informing" the crew that I "had the jumpseat". I always brought a humble attitude commensurate with the fact that my even being there was a privilege (even moreso since my priority was low anyway), that I considered myself a guest onboard their plane, and that nothing is or ever was, "mine" to begin with.
blee256
Well-Known Member
hahahaha
stuckingfk
Well-Known Member
Kind of ironic since he himself has already paid to observe captains flying.
mikecweb
Well-Known Member
opcorn: + :beer:
Remember folks, the jumpseat is a privilege, not a right.
It doesn't matter if you're going to work, live thousands of miles from work or have some extenuating circumstance. If you view it for what it truly is, you'll keep yourself out of trouble.
There's no way in hell I'd be based in a city without an ONLINE jumpseat, or at least a single flight that my airline flies. You never know when some 'jumpseat war' is going to break out and I really don't want any part of that fully paralyzing my ability to get to work to stack that cheddar.
I can't think of any strike where the people who chose to cross the picket line weren't fully aware of the ramifications of doing so.
If I walked across "No Man's Land", to hang out with the Axis Powers and sit out the Battle of the Somme in relative safety and then back across to the Allied Forces after the armistice was sign then tried to hitchhike an American convoy, I certainly wouldn't expect "bygones to be bygones".
Melodramatic, admittedly yes, but I'm fueled by espresso this morning.
I'm as "koombayah" as the next guy but if you cross a picket line, expect no professional courtesies and be thankful and humble for those you do receive.
It doesn't matter if you're going to work, live thousands of miles from work or have some extenuating circumstance. If you view it for what it truly is, you'll keep yourself out of trouble.
There's no way in hell I'd be based in a city without an ONLINE jumpseat, or at least a single flight that my airline flies. You never know when some 'jumpseat war' is going to break out and I really don't want any part of that fully paralyzing my ability to get to work to stack that cheddar.
I can't think of any strike where the people who chose to cross the picket line weren't fully aware of the ramifications of doing so.
If I walked across "No Man's Land", to hang out with the Axis Powers and sit out the Battle of the Somme in relative safety and then back across to the Allied Forces after the armistice was sign then tried to hitchhike an American convoy, I certainly wouldn't expect "bygones to be bygones".
Melodramatic, admittedly yes, but I'm fueled by espresso this morning.
I'm as "koombayah" as the next guy but if you cross a picket line, expect no professional courtesies and be thankful and humble for those you do receive.