Cleveland TRACON Consolidation

N519AT

N519AT

Ahh! This is how I change this!
Basically, the FAA has plans to consolidate all of the TRACONs in northern Ohio (TOL, MFD, CAK, CLE and YNG) into one large consolidated TRACON in Cleveland.

This makes for two TRACONs that cover the entire state (DAY consolidating to CMH in 5 months). We recently had a meeting out at TOL for pilots to become aware of this issue, and I'm passing it along to you.

Here's the website: http://www.localairportsmatter.com/

You can write your local representative to make them aware of this issue and how it will affect the users of the system via the website.

Apparently they've done this in few areas throughout the country and in some areas it works, some it doesn't. PSP getting moved into SOCAL was one that really stuck out into why it doesn't work. They think this big Northern Ohio TRACON isn't going to work that well either.

I'll stop blabbering and let the website do the rest of the talking, but I urge you to use the website to write a letter to your representative with your opinions on this issue.

http://www.localairportsmatter.com
 
why doesnt it work? I havent had (or heard of) any problems with PSP TRSA becoming part of Socal approach
 
Next, the FAA is going to consolidate all ARTCCs into one, national ARTCC..
 
I didn't even know MFD had an approach control until I was flying to 5A1 last summer... it's not labeled or anything and I was surprised to hear "Contact Mansfield Approach on xxx.xxx"
 
That would suck. MFD is a good place for student pilots to learn to shoot approaches. Very friendy and they have all the approaches you need to learn. So what would happen to all the facilities than? Theres alot of money in all those tracons rooms. What they going to do close all the current facilities and build who huge one at a cost of what?
 
SIUav8er said:
why doesnt it work? I havent had (or heard of) any problems with PSP TRSA becoming part of Socal approach
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From the website:

Loss of Local Knowledge
When approach radars are shut down at local airports and shipped to a remote location, invaluable knowledge of the terrain and geography surrounding these airports disappears. Thorough knowledge of the local geography surrounding an airport is an invaluable tool for air traffic controllers. In fact, local knowledge helps save countless lives every year. (see youtube videos below this quote)


Diminished Service
When approach radars are transferred to large radar hubs, the level of services provided to general aviation aircraft is often diminished. These large radar facilities often provide radar services to larger metropolitan airports catering to commercial airlines. While FAA procedures dictate that commercial aircraft receive priority, local airports and their general aviation constituencies often see a decrease in ATC attention when approach radars are taken away from local airports.


Safety & Efficiency
FAA statistics show that large radar centers typically have over 63-percent more operational errors than combined Tower/radar facilities. Cost estimates also show that realigned facilities typically cost more to operate than the current system. There are countless examples nationwide where local ATC service has been diminished following the realignment of a approach radar as controllers overseeing the airspace are no longer located anywhere near the airport.
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Videos from the website:

[YT]auLXapJ1P28[/YT]

[YT]oQuwfMpJifU[/YT]


About PSP. In the presentation, the NATCA spokeswoman mentioned that there was a DOT audit done on staffing levels for SOCAL prior to picking up PSP. The audit found SOCAL severely understaffed and that facility had one of the highest operational error rates in the country. After the consolidation, operational errors went up drastically.

As the website stated, there is a loss of service for general aviation. In Toledo's airspace currently, there are about 25 satellite airports. About 95% of those have instrument approaches. Imagine having an instrument student wanting practice approaches, sitting on the ground idling waiting for an approach control that is so busy with the airlines that you can't get your clearance. And you wait. And wait. Looks like that hobbs meter clicked over another tenth for the third time. Sure you can call FSS, but you'll wait there too and likely be so angry you'll throw your phone out the window. Toledo TRACON currently is VERY tolerant with practice approaches and will even give radar advisories when doing air work. I'd rather not see that service go away as it makes it safer for everyone in that airpsace.

This plan doesn't save any money either. They have to pay for controllers to move, pay for more controllers, pay them more money for working in a busier facility and build the facility itself.

Not to mention the fact that if you have some kind of power outage or an equipment malfunction at this consolidated TRACON. It happened in Memphis. So you have the entire northern half of Ohio without radar coverage with DTW TRACON, CMH TRACON and ZOB trying to pick up the slack. Good luck getting your clearence then.

Another reason. TOL, MFD, CAK, YNG are all up/down facilities. This means that Tower controllers and TRACON controllers are the same thing. They're able to do both jobs and on a typical shift, they rotate through the tower and TRACON. This new TRACON is not up/down. This means that if somebody calls in sick in the TRACON, they can't have a person who's supposed to be working a sleepy ground control come down to the TRACON to help out. This results in a controller working extra sectors all while the system is getting bogged down. Good luck getting a clearence or radar advisories then.

Look, I'm not a part of NATCA..I'm am against this because I'm the user of this system. I like being able to get radar advisories for airwork. I like being able to get separation services on a practice approach. I like to be able to get my clearence in a timely manner when doing IFR training flights. It helps me get the most efficient use of the time I'm paying for. With the new consolidated TRACON, this entire paragraph of positives turns into negatives. I also believe that the airspace will get less safe because of it.

I realize I only talked about Toledo in the majority of my post. A lot of these things are true elseware, too. MFD is a good place to have students learn practice approaches, as someone else said. CAK has a lot of airline service going on. YNG has airline service, GA, and ANG like Toledo. This plan just really doesn't add up in the sensibility department.
 
As far as CAK goes, it would be a bad idea. It has been a great training ground for new controllers and also has a high amount of instrument instruction. I can think of at least 7 flight schools in their airspace with 4 of them flying every day possible. They are very good about giving traffic advisories in the practice areas and also practice approaches.
 
They are only doing this because CLE approach doesnt have enough airspace to extend the double secret downwind into the triple secret downwind. Airplanes take a lot of room when the speed limit in approach's airspace is 170 and 10-20 miles in trail. Anyone who's flown into CLE knows what I'm talking about.
 
I was told by a local DPE that there is some buzz about consolidating in the West Michigan area as well. Apparently the talk is about joining up GRR, AZO, and MKG radar services into one facility.
 
casey said:
They are only doing this because CLE approach doesnt have enough airspace to extend the double secret downwind into the triple secret downwind. Airplanes take a lot of room when the speed limit in approach's airspace is 170 and 10-20 miles in trail. Anyone who's flown into CLE knows what I'm talking about.
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Thaaaaaaaank you!

If they knew how to use their runways and let people get in on an actual VISUAL approach the 3 days a year that it's VFR, they'd have no problems.

Why am I being sent to 24R when the next aircraft to taxi out is......me.......in 20 minutes........40 if I have to land 24R?

-mini
 
I like it when people stay local and do things on a smaller level and I understand this may be a change for the worse, much like AFSS; though I must say that the consolidation of two tracons that were within 50 miles of each other worked out extremely well in my area ( from a pilots prospective).

The only problems I've seen is that sometimes the controllers have an identity crisis.
My buddy also was started working the other Charlies Tower and he said their was going to be a pay cut for the new hires since they will no longer be dual qualified on TRACON that was in the bottom of the tower.

Just saying, it wasn't the end of the world.

Edit: and with our merger, it didn't mean fewer controller. We still get handed off to the next, a different, controller in the same geographic location.
 
Wow, N519AT, I am always amazed at how small of a world aviation is. I thought that voice sounded familiar, I went to school with the guy in your DSM video. He's still flying with starcheck.
 
N519AT said:
From the website:


Videos from the website:

[YT]auLXapJ1P28[/YT]
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This was from my home airport! That controller got the Archie award for that just before he retired. A little bit of background on that clip. It was an older gentleman who was trying to proceed VFR into an area of IFR conditions with snow, freezing rain, and sleet. It was a C182. The plane iced up pretty bad and he mayday'd into HUF which was midway into his route. The airplane made it to the airport but crashed on the runway because the pilot slowed the airplane to normal approach speed, lowered the flaps, and reduced power. The plane immediately stalled do to the load of ice and impacted the runway threshold. The plane sat on our ramp for about a month or two until the gentleman finally found an A&P to fix his wrecked plane. No one on our field would go near it....

This tracon (Hulman Approach) is in great danger of closing. The staffing is near minimal and they use the older analog ARTs scopes. Indy Center already takes the airspace at night and now there is talk of consolidating the airspace to Indy during daylight hours. This isn't good because radar coverage would only go down to 3,000ft msl or so at best. We wouldn't be able to conduct near the practice approaches and IFR operations would be less safe.

There was an interesting accident that our TRACON claimed could have been prevented when a C206 crashed short of Bloomington IN- BMG during low IMC killing all aboard. During the time of the accident the airspace was being controlled by Indy Center which as noted above doesn't have good radar coverage down low and cannot provide vectors. If Hulman tracon was controlling, they could have issued LA alerts and or provided life-saving vectors.
 
For every pilot that makes a poor decision and needs the "local knowledge" of ATC, how many saves are made by a controller being able to shout and point at a potential conflict on adjacent controllers scope instead of picking up a phone and waiting for it to ring 50 miles down the road?
 
turbojet28 said:
I was told by a local DPE that there is some buzz about consolidating in the West Michigan area as well. Apparently the talk is about joining up GRR, AZO, and MKG radar services into one facility.
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NATCA informational meeting on Saturday at GRR.

grr atc.JPG
 
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