Final NTSB report on Colgan/CO 3407

cmill said:
It IS an issue that the crew made a mistake. What are we supposed to do ignore it?


Nobody is taking a swing at anybody. How is it classless to state a fact? The crew crashed a plane that did everything it could to save itself, and as a result, everyone died. Sorry, but the truth is tough.
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Read all of the posts before commenting.
 
It is pretty classless to question someones competency/abilities when they are dead. How many people on this board actually knew either Rebecca or Marvin? Probably not too many... so how in the hell can you comment on their competence in the aircraft? Heaven forbid any of you get into an accident like this but would you want us questioning your actions/abilities? I think kellwolf nailed it on the head because most aviators would not be around if they made errors like this on a normal basis.
 
Avalon781ML said:
It is pretty classless to question someones competency/abilities when they are dead. How many people on this board actually knew either Rebecca or Marvin? Probably not too many... so how in the hell can you comment on their competence in the aircraft? Heaven forbid any of you get into an accident like this but would you want us questioning your actions/abilities? I think kellwolf nailed it on the head because most aviators would not be around if they made errors like this on a normal basis.
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Did you miss what I posted about referring to my last paragraph in my Accident Analyses?

Doing so, and following it, would end this argument here and now, and cease tainting this thread with this BS people are getting worked up over.

I suggest everyone do so before posting anymore never ending circular arguments here..
 
MikeD said:
I'd be "that guy" they go to for the "so can you tell us exactly what happened??"; to where they'd get "you're seeing what I'm seeing, Bob". :D
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"So it appears that the landing gear is down and locked...can you explain that to us...is this a normal procedure?" You can be CNN's "resident aviation analyst!"

I am glad someone mentioned the Captain's multiple checkride busts, I read that this morning in one of the NTSB powerpoints and was kind of shocked.
 
MikeD said:
Did you miss what I posted about referring to my last paragraph in my Accident Analyses?

....

The above is not intended to be an undue criticism of the person or persons involved in the incident described. Instead, the analysis presented is intended to further the cause of flight safety and help to reduce accidents and incidents by educating pilots through the sacrifices of others in our profession.
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For the lazy among us. I didn't know the crew, I'm sure most of us didn't. There were plenty of interviews pointing out that they were great people, as I'm sure they were.

Aviation safety improves only when we take an honest look at all of the factual information surrounding a mishap, learn from it, and make changes. In this case, human factors and training are not only pertinent, but essential to any discussion. In any case, I think the discussion here is focused on how to prevent a mishap like this from happening again, and it isn't a criticism of the crew.
 
MikeD said:
Did you miss what I posted about referring to my last paragraph in my Accident Analyses?

Doing so, and following it, would end this argument here and now, and cease tainting this thread with this BS people are getting worked up over.

I suggest everyone do so before posting anymore never ending circular arguments here..
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I didn't Mike... read through it multiple times... I simply think that it is very disrespectful to talk about the dead as some people have.... no speculation about the crash here. Perhaps I am missing part of your post?
 
drunkenbeagle said:
For the lazy among us. I didn't know the crew, I'm sure most of us didn't. There were plenty of interviews pointing out that they were great people, as I'm sure they were.

Aviation safety improves only when we take an honest look at all of the factual information surrounding a mishap, learn from it, and make changes. In this case, human factors and training are not only pertinent, but essential to any discussion. In any case, I think the discussion here is focused on how to prevent a mishap like this from happening again, and it isn't a criticism of the crew.
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Thank you for posting that. Now, following that lead, there should be no question about legitimate criticism of the crew and their actions. We as pilots need to be able to set aside the "personal" nature of an accident.....especially if we knew those involved.....and be able to critically learn from what was done and how, and all the related factors therein. If we don't, then those that gave their lives in the particular accident we're studying, will have done so for not.

When you read my Accident Analyses, I take a critical angle on anything related to the accident. All of which is done to gain an understanding and present that understanding in narrative format. I'm direct when I need to be, light when I need to be, all dependant on the issue I'm discussing; none of which is ever personal in nature.
 
Avalon781ML said:
I didn't Mike... read through it multiple times... I simply think that it is very disrespectful to talk about the dead as some people have.... no speculation about the crash here. Perhaps I am missing part of your post?
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Yes, direct slam dunking of those involved in a personal nature, is counterproductive and therefore wholly unnecessary. For the rest, see above. I'm speaking of the general nature of the posts that have appeared. Putting this behind us, we should be able to get on with the thread and the issues at hand, all of which are important. The thread is getting severely sidetracked.
 
MikeD said:
Yes, direct slam dunking of those involved in a personal nature, is counterproductive and therefore wholly unnecessary. For the rest, see above. I'm speaking of the general nature of the posts that have appeared. Putting this behind us, we should be able to get on with the thread and the issues at hand, all of which are important. The thread is getting severely sidetracked.
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I agree with you 100% Mike...
 
Maybe it is just the jets I have flown lately and the way sims act. Raise of hands, how many people actually push forward on the controls in the sim when you do your stall series (at the onset of the stall)?

3 different jets, none of them required or allowed forward pressure to recover, it was radar power and hold what you have to minimize altitude loss.
 
400A said:
Maybe it is just the jets I have flown lately and the way sims act. Raise of hands, how many people actually push forward on the controls in the sim when you do your stall series (at the onset of the stall)?

3 different jets, none of them required or allowed forward pressure to recover, it was radar power and hold what you have to minimize altitude loss.
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It's true. I personally feel this is much more an airline training issue than a "bad fundamentals" problem. During training for the ERJ, we'd never actually take it past the shaker. Not to mention, when you pushed the TLs up to max thrust while riding the shaker, you had to pull back to maintain pitch (aft mounted engines). The same would hold true for a Q400 with the thrust line above the CG.
 
An error is an error. Assaulting the character or personality of the victims would be wrong - but questioning their actions, and criticising their actions if warranted are neccesary as part of the process.

I would state that the real tragedy, and the true insult to the crew, would be to not learn anything from this - including their mistakes. And I imagine that they would probably agree with that statement if they were here.
 
dasleben said:
It's true. I personally feel this is much more an airline training issue than a "bad fundamentals" problem. During training for the ERJ, we'd never actually take it past the shaker. Not to mention, when you pushed the TLs up to max thrust while riding the shaker, you had to pull back to maintain pitch (aft mounted engines).
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Is an accelerated stall something you practice in the sim?
 
While I see the point above about it pushing the stick forward, you also add power in correct? You can't hit the shaker, ride through it without some sort of action whether it be level off and or add power.the shaker is coming on before the stall for a reason it's designed to tell you of an impending stall it's an action warning. You must do SOMETHING or you will stall. You can't be on approach, low and slow, hit the shaker and not take corrective action.
 
Inverted said:
While I see the point above about it pushing the stick forward, you also add power in correct? You can't hit the shaker, ride through it without some sort of action whether it be level off and or add power.the shaker is coming on before the stall for a reason it's designed to tell you of an impending stall it's an action warning. You must do SOMETHING or you will stall. You can't be on approach, low and slow, hit the shaker and not take corrective action.
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Adding power would be the correct thing to do. I've had an autopilot click off a few times when I wasn't expecting it. The thing to be aware of is that you don't immediately notice where the trim is set, so I would say the general answer would be control pressure suitable to give you the airspeed you want.
 
Inverted said:
While I see the point above about it pushing the stick forward, you also add power in correct? You can't hit the shaker, ride through it without some sort of action whether it be level off and or add power.the shaker is coming on before the stall for a reason it's designed to tell you of an impending stall it's an action warning. You must do SOMETHING or you will stall. You can't be on approach, low and slow, hit the shaker and not take corrective action.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lxywEE1kK6I

He did add power, actually almost immediately. Start at about 2:00 into the video. The entire sequence leading up to the upset looks to me like a textbook approach to stall in the sim.
 
My last recurrent for the beechjet we took the sim to full stall and held it there. With the thrust at idle and full aft pressure on the column, the airplane (sim) only came down at about 700 fpm but would "falling leaf", gain airspeed, climb a little, fall a little. To get out of it, I just ran the power levers to max and held what I had and the airplane powered out of it. The whole thing from start to finish (about 30 seconds worth of "deep stall") we only lost 1500 feet or so.
 
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