Piper changes direction

K

KSCessnaDriver

Well-Known Member
It seems like in the last few years Piper had been making a stand on the high end, JetA burning aircraft for GA. Today, it appears that they are changing it all.
http://www.avweb.com/avwebflash/news/PiperUnveilsPiperSportLSA_201878-1.html
100121piper.jpg


I'm a big fan of doing something to try to keep flying at its basic form affordable. This is going to go a long way towards that. While, it doesn't appear like much, other than Piper buying a company, its more than that. The biggest argument I've heard against LSA's is the lack of mechanics who will work on the Rotax powerplant. With Piper taking this leap, using a Rotax, hopefully this will change that. Piper service centers are all over the place, and hopefully they get mechanics who will work on the plane, and thus, over 80% of the LSA's out there.
 
KSCessnaDriver said:
It seems like in the last few years Piper had been making a stand on the high end, JetA burning aircraft for GA. Today, it appears that they are changing it all.
http://www.avweb.com/avwebflash/news/PiperUnveilsPiperSportLSA_201878-1.html
100121piper.jpg


I'm a big fan of doing something to try to keep flying at its basic form affordable. This is going to go a long way towards that. While, it doesn't appear like much, other than Piper buying a company, its more than that. The biggest argument I've heard against LSA's is the lack of mechanics who will work on the Rotax powerplant. With Piper taking this leap, using a Rotax, hopefully this will change that. Piper service centers are all over the place, and hopefully they get mechanics who will work on the plane, and thus, over 80% of the LSA's out there.
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Fantastic. More outsourcing.
 
TFaudree_ERAU said:
Affordable to who?
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Compare it to a similarly equipped, new Part 23 certificated airplane. The plane is 30-40% cheaper than the part 23 certificated plane. Probably the best thing to compare it to is a Diamond DA-20. Very similar airplanes. 2 people, similar loads. Neither is IFR approved (yet). There is potential that the Piper could get IFR approval, but doubtful, IMO. For the flight school environment. Operating costs are similar. One can run on Mogas, one can't. One doesn't require an A&P and one does. Nothing is totally afordable about planes, but when side by side affordable takes on a new definition.
 
uhhhh you could buy a little toy plane like this, or buy something like a decent used aztec for 90k.... i dont get it.:confused:
 
Murdoughnut said:
What's the TAS and fuel burn? If it could match the Skyhawk, then you could see it being a player.
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132MPH (115 Knots) True Airspeed at 5 GPH, 75% power. It holds 30 gallons, in the wings. I don't know what you flight plan a 172 at, but thats right where I put a 172S these days. Basically same range and speed at about half the fuel, with about the same load.
 
The fuel burn helps keep rental rates around $80-90/hr wet. Or at least, that's what I was renting a Gobosh G700S for, which is basically the US made equivalent.

I've seen 105-110 KTAS typically out of the Gobosh, but the impressive thing I think is the climb performance. On a 20F day I had the VSI pegged climbing at Vy for the first 1000-1500 ft or so.
 
N519AT said:
The fuel burn helps keep rental rates around $80-90/hr wet. Or at least, that's what I was renting a Gobosh G700S for, which is basically the US made equivalent.

I've seen 105-110 KTAS typically out of the Gobosh, but the impressive thing I think is the climb performance. On a 20F day I had the VSI pegged climbing at Vy for the first 1000-1500 ft or so.
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Times have changed. Rented the da-20 at 67 an hour back in 2005.
 
In all fairness, even a Warrior would cost way more than that new. Give them some time to integrate into the used market. A new cessna 172 costs pretty much double that of this new LSA from piper.
 
KSCessnaDriver said:
132MPH (115 Knots) True Airspeed at 5 GPH, 75% power. It holds 30 gallons, in the wings. I don't know what you flight plan a 172 at, but thats right where I put a 172S these days. Basically same range and speed at about half the fuel, with about the same load.
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Damn, that's impressive. I plan at 105 in the 172P, and I imagine this guy really flies somewhere close to there. But that fuel burn sure is nice. If were in the market for a newer 172, I might skip it for this.
 
Murdoughnut said:
Damn, that's impressive. I plan at 105 in the 172P, and I imagine this guy really flies somewhere close to there. But that fuel burn sure is nice. If were in the market for a newer 172, I might skip it for this.
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I'd imagine that 115 might be a bit optimistic as well. Even in the 105-110 range, at that fuel burn, is amazing. Sure, the Diamond DA-20 will do about the same, but it costs a whole heck of a lot more. Honestly, its not just this LSA that will do that speed, with the same load. Most of them will. Its just a matter of finding one that has a good supply chain. Hopefully, this Piper deal will do just that.
 
KSCessnaDriver said:
Compare it to a similarly equipped, new Part 23 certificated airplane. The plane is 30-40% cheaper than the part 23 certificated plane.
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There's your key word. You think CARS depreciate quickly when they're driven off the lot, airplanes win that race hands down. IF I ever buy a plane, it sure as hell won't be new.....
 
Murdoughnut said:
Damn, that's impressive. I plan at 105 in the 172P, and I imagine this guy really flies somewhere close to there. But that fuel burn sure is nice. If were in the market for a newer 172, I might skip it for this.
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No more impressive than this: http://www.libertyaircraft.com/airplane-liberty-xl2/11-pricing.php

A little more expensive but standard IFR and certified part 23 two seater for 210,000 with FADEC. But with piper not being IFR certified, I don't think it will market well. Also, keep in mind that a year ago this aircraft was 150,000 certified IFR. It's popularity has drastically effected its price.

588 useful load, 669 fpm climb gross, 65% cruise 115 @ 5.5 gph.



KC: Where did you find the 75% at 5gph...that sounds off. To my knowledge FADEC is about as efficient as they come and this aircraft has the smallest available FADEC engine.
 
kellwolf said:
There's your key word. You think CARS depreciate quickly when they're driven off the lot, airplanes win that race hands down. IF I ever buy a plane, it sure as hell won't be new.....
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Look at the high volume flight schools, where many of the sales occur. They all want new airplanes, for marketing purposes. Quite frankly, I'd be inclined to pay $10 an hour more for a brand new airplane over something built in the 1970's, but that's just me.

shdw said:
KC: Where did you find the 75% at 5gph...that sounds off. To my knowledge FADEC is about as efficient as they come and this aircraft has the smallest available FADEC engine.
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http://www.planeandpilotmag.com/aircraft/specifications/czech-aircraft-works/czaw-sport-cruiser.html

They, and various other websites, claim 4.5 gph on 75% power on the Rotax. From experience with the engine, I'd guess its closer to 5 gallons an hour. Either way, not bad. The Rotax is amazing on what it will do, and how smoothly it runs, when the carburetors get balanced out properly.
 
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