LOI Responses

tgrayson

tgrayson

New Member
Couple of letters I received today from the General Counsel's Office in response to a request for interpretations in August. One concerning instrument training in a ME without an MEI:

http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org...terpretations/data/interps/2010/Grayson-2.pdf

The gist is that they affirm the plain reading of it and observe that FAAO 8900.1, 5-503 is inconsistent with the regulation.

The other concerning what "rating limitations" means in 61.31(l)(2).

http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org...terpretations/data/interps/2010/Grayson-1.pdf

This one reverses some of the interpretations of the old Part 61 FAQs.
 
tgrayson said:
Couple of letters I received today from the General Counsel's Office in response to a request for interpretations in August. One concerning instrument training in a ME without an MEI:

http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org...terpretations/data/interps/2010/Grayson-2.pdf

The gist is that they affirm the plain reading of it and observe that FAAO 8900.1, 5-503 is inconsistent with the regulation.
Click to expand...

It seems as if the FAA once again say things that they may not mean:

Section 61.195(b), which addresses flight instructor limitations and qualifications with regard to aircraft ratings, directs that a flight instructor may not conduct flight training in any aircraft for which he does not hold "a pilot certificate and flight instructor certifIcate with the applicable category and class rating[.]" As such, a flight instructor is precluded from providing flight training in a specifIc class of airplane if the instructor does not have that class rating on his or her flight instructor certificate."
My emphasis. Note the way this seems to read a CFII can NOT give flight training in any airplane unless they hold an instructor rating for that specific class of airplane. So if an instructor only has a Certified Flight Instructor Instrument Airplane, nothing else, they can not teach in airplanes. Period.
Then later:​
"In addition to clarifying that a flight instructor providing instrument flight training for a commercial or ATP certificate must have an instrument-airplane rating on his or her flight instructor certificate, we explained that, under​
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§ 61.195, a flight instructor may not conduct instrument flight training in a multiengine airplane unless that flight instructor holds the appropriate airplane category multi engine class rating on both his or her pilot certificate and flight instructor certificate."
So was the intent to preclude the CFII from teaching in ANY airplane without the appropriate class, or just ME without the appropriate class?
​

 
Blackhawk said:
So was the intent to preclude the CFII from teaching in ANY airplane without the appropriate class, or just ME without the appropriate class?
Click to expand...

I interpret it that the -II can't train in any class of aircraft until he/she has the appropriate class rating on his instructor certificate. I can't see any basis for it applying only to ME.
 
tgrayson said:
I interpret it that the -II can't train in any class of aircraft until he/she has the appropriate class rating on his instructor certificate. I can't see any basis for it applying only to ME.
Click to expand...

I agree. It just seems from the one statement that this may not have been the intent.
 
It goes the other way around too. Where I work, we have a number of ex-mil guys who have MEI or MEI/CFII only and may or may not have an ASEL on their Comm/ATP certificate. As such, they can't teach instruments to someone in a 172, and some of them can't even legally fly anything single-engine. I had a day where I was going to take a T-210 up for some instrument approaches, and the ony guys I had around the office were two of these Comm/ATP AMEL-only guys, and the remaining ones were Comm/ATP-Rotorcraft-Helo guys.
 
Blackhawk said:
I agree. It just seems from the one statement that this may not have been the intent.
Click to expand...

I think they were quoting the FAA response to a comment on the NPRM [that I made] about this issue. If they focused on the ME aspect of it, it is probably because I did. I think if they were trying to limit this to the ME class rating through some strange rationale, they would have stated it pretty explicitly.
 
tgrayson said:
Couple of letters I received today from the General Counsel's Office in response to a request for interpretations in August. One concerning instrument training in a ME without an MEI:

http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org...terpretations/data/interps/2010/Grayson-2.pdf

The gist is that they affirm the plain reading of it and observe that FAAO 8900.1, 5-503 is inconsistent with the regulation.
Click to expand...
Which is not a huge surprise since 61.195 was amended affective in October and they may not have gotten around making the change in FSIMS.

Although probably needed to clear up some confusion, neither interpretation struck me as particularly surprising.
 
Digging up an older topic here because I am confused :insane: I need a LOI for a LOI.

http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/.../Grayson-2.pdf

So, even though I hold commercial multi certificate, if I get my CFII as an initial in an ASEL I can teach instrument students in an ASEL but not AMEL?

I thought the new instructor cert would only say "[FONT=&quot]INSTRUMENT—AIRPLANE" on the back and be good for both. If the instructor certificate said "AIRPLANE SINGLE-ENGINE; [/FONT][FONT=&quot]INSTRUMENT—AIRPLANE" I would have to of had a regular CFI ride...?
[/FONT]
 
lhornaday said:
Digging up an older topic here because I am confused :insane: I need a LOI for a LOI.

http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/.../Grayson-2.pdf

So, even though I hold commercial multi certificate, if I get my CFII as an initial in an ASEL I can teach instrument students in an ASEL but not AMEL?

I thought the new instructor cert would only say "[FONT=&quot]INSTRUMENT—AIRPLANE" on the back and be good for both. If the instructor certificate said "AIRPLANE SINGLE-ENGINE; [/FONT][FONT=&quot]INSTRUMENT—AIRPLANE" I would have to of had a regular CFI ride...?
[/FONT]
Click to expand...

Negative. With just a CFI-Instrument rating on your instructor certificate, you can do simulator and ground training. Beyond that, regardless of what pilot certificates you hold, you need either a CFI- Single Engine Airplane or CFI- Multi Engine Land, to teach in an airplane.
 
What about this?

FSIMS 8900 said:
According to part 61 , flight instructors who hold an “INSTRUMENT—AIRPLANE” rating only on their flight instructor certificate are authorized to give instrument flight instruction in single- and/or multiengine airplanes for instrument certification, provided they hold single- and/or multiengine ratings on their pilot certificate.
Click to expand...

I see it as you cant give flight instruction, but you can give instrument instruction.
 
lhornaday said:
I think the key word is "instrument" instruction.
Click to expand...

Its still flight instruction.

61.195(c) Instrument Rating. A flight instructor who provides instrument training for the issuance of an instrument rating, a type rating not limited to VFR, or the instrument training required for commercial pilot and airline transport pilot certificates must hold an instrument rating on his or her pilot certificate and flight instructor certificate that is appropriate to the category and class of aircraft used for the training provided.

So, to me, that says if you are going to be giving Jonny A instrument instruction in a PA-44, the following things are going to be required.
1: Commercial Pilot Certificate with MEL privileges and an instrument rating
2: Flight Instructor Certificate with Multi-Engine Airplane privileges and Instrument Airplane privileges.
3: 5 hours of PIC in a PA-44.
 
It makes sense now after reading the regs carefully. I was reading the examiners handbook which doesn't match up... but the FAA knows it.

"We note that FAA Order 8900.1, 5-503, which you referenced in your letter, is inconsistent with the current regulation."
 
What about giving an IPC in a multi without having an MEI?

In an IPC you are giving nstrument training so I am pretty sure you can not do that either?

Thoughts?
 
Here is how I would explain why you can not conduct an IPC in a twin w/o an MEI and CFII.

An IPC must be conducted by an authorized instructor. 61.1(b)(2) defines an authorized instructor as someone who can conduct ground training or flight training in accordance with the privileges and limitations of his or her flight instructor certificate.

Instructing in a AMEL is not a privilege of a CFI with ASEL.
 
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