Military aerial refueling

RICHARD5

RICHARD5

Well-Known Member
This pertains only to 5 observations I made while camping in W AZ.

I thought everyone had a wingman. Why did I observe 3 fighters in formation with a DC-10? On all observations I noted only an odd number of fighters. Nothing observed in trail or outside of formation. No distinct sound signature either. Allowing that perhaps one fighter was 'blanked' by refueler fuselage, I could see only 3 fighters in all aspects as viewed from the ground by naked eye and 7 x 35 Bushnells. Sun was at my 120-220*.

On mutiple daytime observations I noticed they were quite low...maybe 10,000 msl. This to save Versus time to climb to higher?

Several passes were significactly faster than other passes. Is there a speed range (tactical) for refueling? I measured this by sweep second hand and time to pass stationary landmarks.

Oh yeah, I came into town to buy grub. I think I met my next wife...at Wal Mart. Goodness, am I now destined to wander Wal Mart waiting for her to come back?
 
RICHARD5 said:
This pertains only to 5 observations I made while camping in W AZ.

I thought everyone had a wingman. Why did I observe 3 fighters in formation with a DC-10? On all observations I noted only an odd number of fighters. Nothing observed in trail or outside of formation. No distinct sound signature either. Allowing that perhaps one fighter was 'blanked' by refueler fuselage, I could see only 3 fighters in all aspects as viewed from the ground by naked eye and 7 x 35 Bushnells. Sun was at my 120-220*.

On mutiple daytime observations I noticed they were quite low...maybe 10,000 msl. This to save Versus time to climb to higher?

Several passes were significactly faster than other passes. Is there a speed range (tactical) for refueling? I measured this by sweep second hand and time to pass stationary landmarks.
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3-ship formations aren't uncommon, especially for training. Oftentimes you'll have an IP in one jet, and two students as wingmen.

AAR would be higher than 10K. Track would likely be in the 16K and up range.

Speed range depends on the aircraft.
 
RICHARD5 said:
Several passes were significactly faster than other passes. Is there a speed range (tactical) for refueling? I measured this by sweep second hand and time to pass stationary landmarks.
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We refueled the BUFF at 255KIAS in the upper 20s. We refueled the fighters (long time ago F-4s, -105s, etc) down in the low 20s or in the case of the Thuds going north, down in the mid teens. F-4s and -105s refueled at 315KIAS. At 255 like the BUFF, the Thud would have been in and out of burner and probably falling off the boom.
 
Hacker15e said:
In the "non-A-10" fighters, we refuel at 310 Cal.
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Ouch! :D

Hey now.......I tried unsuccessfully to get us zero-timed KC-97Ls back in the fleet for our personal use.....:)

Though nothing says "bad day" more than being over in theatre, and the CRC vectors you to an AR track opposite the direction of your recovery bases, and you get there only to find as you're pulling into pre-contact / observation that it's a KC-135..........with a freaking drogue.
 
MikeD said:
Though nothing says "bad day" more than being over in theatre, and the CRC vectors you to an AR track opposite the direction of your recovery bases, and you get there only to find as you're pulling into pre-contact / observation that it's a KC-135..........with a freaking drogue.
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That happened to me on day 1 of OIF (although not quite as bad as your scenario).

I naturally over-flew my Bingo in the insanity of the first mission, so I climbed up unto the 40s and started sky-hooking south in search of a tanker.

The E-3 gives me a point-out to one, and when I get there, I find that it's a KC-10 that has the drogues out and is tanking several Aussie Hornets.

(actual photo I took of this situation later after the 'crisis' was done)

f15reviewsd_4.jpg


Well, as it turns out, by the time we actually join up on the tanker, I have well passed my divert fuel to any piece of pavement and I literally have no divert option. It's either take gas with this guy, or punch out.

Since I don't want to use the "E" word in front of God and Country here on this first day of the war, I let the 10 crew know that I'm very low on fuel and I'd appreciate it if I can go direct to the boom.

The reply was classic.

Boomer: "Well, uh, we're currently refueling Hornets with the hose out..."

Thanks. I wasn't aware of that, even though I'm sitting here 10 feet off your right wing.

Fortunately, the Aussie Hornet flight lead was their Squadron Commander (YKYMF!!), could read between the lines on what I was saying, and volunteered to take his flight off the hose right now in order for me to take some gas.

Looking at my fuel, I had probably 10 or 15 minutes until 'flameout', so I was pretty relieved.

Then, displaying their further misunderstanding of the situation, the 10 just sits there with the hoses out and not dropping the boom. When I inquire, their reply:

"We're switching boomers for training..."

GODDAMN IT! I'M ABOUT TO TAKE THE @#$%KING SILK LETDOWN AND YOU GUYS ARE WORRIED ABOUT BOOMER TRAINING?!

I'm slightly relieved when I see the boom drop off the hooks, and I move down into precontact.

Then I see the boom swinging wildly all over the place...up....down.....side....side....etc. I ask them what they're doing and reiterate that I'm precontact, stabilized, ready, and REALLY in need of some fuel else they're about to be on-scene commanders for the SARCAP.

"Sir, we have to do our boom checks...it will just be a minute...."

AAAAAGH.
 
Hacker15e said:
Then I see the boom swinging wildly all over the place...up....down.....side....side....etc. I ask them what they're doing and reiterate that I'm precontact, stabilized, ready, and REALLY in need of some fuel else they're about to be on-scene commanders for the SARCAP.

"Sir, we have to do our boom checks...it will just be a minute...."

AAAAAGH.
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That was not the fault of the boomer but of the Aircraft Commander. Any good AC would have sized up the situation, realized it was critical and moved expeditiously.

Friend of mine dragged a Thud back to home plate. The Thud was porting fuel about as rapidly as the tanker was giving it. The boom over-rode the disconnects and John, my Ops Officer, dragged the Thud home, down to about 200-300ft over the runway, cut him loose and went home. John didn't even get an air medal for the save.

Funny thing is even SAC realized the difference between the real world and stateside. We were not vulnerable for ANY checkride for 45 days after we returned. I guess even the mucky-mucks realized we probably would use real world tactical decision making which wouldn't fit the everyday training syllabus.
 
What is skyhoooking?

Did you read the article in AOPA or flying (I forgot which) about the F-15 that had an major avionics failure after a low IFR takeoff while trying to flying in trail using radar?

If I have time I'll post it.
 
aloft said:
I would freakin LOVE to hear about that night!
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Ya know, in retrospect it really wasn't all that exciting compared to other sorties I flew. It was just that flying real combat missions -- where the bad guys were actually shooting back -- was so different than anything I'd done in peacetime or in the 'combat' missions I'd been flying in OSW prior to the kickoff of Shock and Awe.

Lots of things happening, lots of mixed emotions, lots of fast-paced decisionmaking. It was a total rush, and although overflying your fuel is one of the basic fighter pilot sins....I lost track of my gas in the midst of what was going on.
 
Bandit_Driver said:
What is skyhoooking?
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Just means getting up in the high 30s or 40s so that the fuel burn decreases. It implies that you're flying at the max range airspeed/fuel flow to squeeze as much range as you can with as little fuel burn as possible.

Bandit_Driver said:
Did you read the article in AOPA or flying (I forgot which) about the F-15 that had an major avionics failure after a low IFR takeoff while trying to flying in trail using radar?

If I have time I'll post it.
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I didn't see that one -- I'd love to read about it.
 
Orange Anchor said:
Friend of mine dragged a Thud back to home plate. The Thud was porting fuel about as rapidly as the tanker was giving it. The boom over-rode the disconnects and John, my Ops Officer, dragged the Thud home, down to about 200-300ft over the runway, cut him loose and went home. John didn't even get an air medal for the save.
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That's the kind of thinking that makes for great warfighting. I only wish the leadership had the same way of doing business!!

Orange Anchor said:
Funny thing is even SAC realized the difference between the real world and stateside. We were not vulnerable for ANY checkride for 45 days after we returned. I guess even the mucky-mucks realized we probably would use real world tactical decision making which wouldn't fit the everyday training syllabus.
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You probably won't be surprised to hear me say it's the same today! After getting home from our combat deployments, we have to go through a "training" program to get ourselves re-qualified to be "combat mission ready".

Asinine.
 
Bandit_Driver said:
What is skyhoooking?

Did you read the article in AOPA or flying (I forgot which) about the F-15 that had an major avionics failure after a low IFR takeoff while trying to flying in trail using radar?

If I have time I'll post it.
Click to expand...

I read that one too, great read!

http://www.high-flying-adventures.com/support-files/how_fighter_pilots_are_really_named.pdf
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Hacker15e said:
That's the kind of thinking that makes for great warfighting. I only wish the leadership had the same way of doing business!!
Asinine.
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On an ORI, John came back and when in the descent, he notified the Command Post he had an engine failure. They went through the drill and checked all the numbers and finally blessed John and told him to declare and emergency and land. He did. John didn't tell them and no one thought to ask when John lost the engine which was actually shortly after gear up on takeoff. John explained that the ORI was to simulate a real event and if it were a real event, he would have done the same.. flew the nav leg, flew the refuelings and returned.
 
Hacker15e said:
That happened to me on day 1 of OIF (although not quite as bad as your scenario).

I naturally over-flew my Bingo in the insanity of the first mission, so I climbed up unto the 40s and started sky-hooking south in search of a tanker.

The E-3 gives me a point-out to one, and when I get there, I find that it's a KC-10 that has the drogues out and is tanking several Aussie Hornets.

(actual photo I took of this situation later after the 'crisis' was done)

f15reviewsd_4.jpg


Well, as it turns out, by the time we actually join up on the tanker, I have well passed my divert fuel to any piece of pavement and I literally have no divert option. It's either take gas with this guy, or punch out.

Since I don't want to use the "E" word in front of God and Country here on this first day of the war, I let the 10 crew know that I'm very low on fuel and I'd appreciate it if I can go direct to the boom.

The reply was classic.

Boomer: "Well, uh, we're currently refueling Hornets with the hose out..."

Thanks. I wasn't aware of that, even though I'm sitting here 10 feet off your right wing.

Fortunately, the Aussie Hornet flight lead was their Squadron Commander (YKYMF!!), could read between the lines on what I was saying, and volunteered to take his flight off the hose right now in order for me to take some gas.

Looking at my fuel, I had probably 10 or 15 minutes until 'flameout', so I was pretty relieved.

Then, displaying their further misunderstanding of the situation, the 10 just sits there with the hoses out and not dropping the boom. When I inquire, their reply:

"We're switching boomers for training..."

GODDAMN IT! I'M ABOUT TO TAKE THE @#$%KING SILK LETDOWN AND YOU GUYS ARE WORRIED ABOUT BOOMER TRAINING?!

I'm slightly relieved when I see the boom drop off the hooks, and I move down into precontact.

Then I see the boom swinging wildly all over the place...up....down.....side....side....etc. I ask them what they're doing and reiterate that I'm precontact, stabilized, ready, and REALLY in need of some fuel else they're about to be on-scene commanders for the SARCAP.

"Sir, we have to do our boom checks...it will just be a minute...."

AAAAAGH.
Click to expand...

Do you have plans to write a book or something? This account (and others I am sure) would make for some good reading!
 
Hacker15e said:
That's the kind of thinking that makes for great warfighting. I only wish the leadership had the same way of doing business!!



You probably won't be surprised to hear me say it's the same today! After getting home from our combat deployments, we have to go through a "training" program to get ourselves re-qualified to be "combat mission ready".

Asinine.
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Why is that, I mean, I'd expect that we'd what guys who were hardened combat pilot veterans. Why wouldn't you operate and train like you're in a combat environment all the time? Is it the culture of "safety" thing? or is it something else?
 
ppragman said:
Why is that, I mean, I'd expect that we'd what guys who were hardened combat pilot veterans. Why wouldn't you operate and train like you're in a combat environment all the time? Is it the culture of "safety" thing? or is it something else?
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It's that the few types of missions/roles that aircraft are being tasked to perform in the combat zone are a mere fraction of the missions we have to be current/qualified to perform in order to be considered "mission ready".

In other words, we're not over in Afghanistan doing 4 v 16 air-to-air engagements, so that skill tends to get a little rusty when you don't even think about it for 6 months.

In the F-15E, we have several of these different roles that we have to be ready to execute, none of which we practice or train to when we are in a combat deployment.

It makes sense when you think about it.

It's more the irony of guys coming fresh off a combat deployment and not being considered "ready" for combat.
 
Hacker15e said:
It's more the irony of guys coming fresh off a combat deployment and not being considered "ready" for combat.
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Better one too is the AFs penchant for wanting to tag Wing's soon after returning from deployment for an ORE/ORI, so the Wing can prove it's able to deploy.
 
ILSstud said:
Do you have plans to write a book or something? This account (and others I am sure) would make for some good reading!
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I actually used to be an enthusiastic hobbyist writer. I journaled all about my experiences going through USAF pilot training (used to have a website about it, too: www.militarypilot.net if you want to check the internet archive) and continued to write for myself and my family about interesting flying experiences. I wrote a lot about participating in OIF during the initial invasion.

I at one point had plans to turn my website journal into a full-on book, and still have a lengthy manuscript. I planned to do the same with my OIF journal. I even have a very detailed nonfiction book manuscript about an airplane called the Cavalier Mustang that is sort of stalled out and waiting for me to finish it.

At some point, though, I sort of just lost the wind from my sails and it doesn't interest me as much as it once did.

In my latest tour in Afghanistan I tried to continue the tradition and write about my experiences there (there were many that were very interesting) but for some reason the inspiration wasn't there and when I did write it was very forced and not very good.

So, I dunno what happened to my spiritos with respect to writing...I just don't have it at the current time. Kind of a bummer.

Hoping I'll get my mojo back in the future, and maybe I'll publish.
 
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