AirTran/SkyWest Expansion Rumors

ATN_Pilot said:
If our code is on the flight, then yes, it is outsourcing.
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I'd be interested in how an arbitrator would see that. I highly doubt Continental sees the flights it code shares with NWA/Delta as outsourcing. That would be a HUGE violation of their 50 seat jet scope clause. Same with WestJet/SWA and SWA/ATA when ATA existed.

Personally, I don't want to see any more regional growth. Sure, it generates jobs, but only at the bottom of the barrel. It benefits the CFIs and the new guys getting into it, but the guys in the middle get stuck. The "good" jobs start going away once management realizes how cheap they can get things. Jobs at the major level benefit EVERYONE, from the new PPL to the guy that wants to retire at the majors.

I just think the whole "if the airline code is on it, it's outsourcing" is a serious oversimplification.
 
kellwolf said:
I'd be interested in how an arbitrator would see that. I highly doubt Continental sees the flights it code shares with NWA/Delta as outsourcing. That would be a HUGE violation of their 50 seat jet scope clause. Same with WestJet/SWA and SWA/ATA when ATA existed.
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Their contracts all have carve-outs for those code-shares, otherwise they couldn't operate them because of the seat limit restrictions.
 
kellwolf said:
I'd be interested in how an arbitrator would see that. I highly doubt Continental sees the flights it code shares with NWA/Delta as outsourcing. That would be a HUGE violation of their 50 seat jet scope clause. Same with WestJet/SWA and SWA/ATA when ATA existed.

Personally, I don't want to see any more regional growth. Sure, it generates jobs, but only at the bottom of the barrel. It benefits the CFIs and the new guys getting into it, but the guys in the middle get stuck. The "good" jobs start going away once management realizes how cheap they can get things. Jobs at the major level benefit EVERYONE, from the new PPL to the guy that wants to retire at the majors.

I just think the whole "if the airline code is on it, it's outsourcing" is a serious oversimplification.
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You raise some very good points. While everyone pounds their chest and talks about scope; the cold hard reality is that there is not a single contract with scope language that can't (and hasn't) be picked apart by a sharp company lawyer. Further, no arbitrator in the land and no court is going to order a company to operate tier business in a manner that materialy harms their business plan.

Additionally, no airline would ever agree to langauage that would compel them to capitulate the operation of their company and the rights of shareholders to a union contract.
 
Ive seen some predictions of whats going to domestic flying...for another prediction at where the whole industry is going look at the United/Aer Lingus deal...You have Aer Lingus hiring new pilots (IAD base) to fly United advertised routes to Europe.
 
Doug Taylor said:
Sounds like the wet dream of a bored ASA FO on a long layover in Baton Rouge! :)
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Point of fact, I don't get why some Skywest employees would be thrilled if the company bought Airtran. Makes no sense to me. These same employees drink the Skywest koolaid like none other too...FWIW

I guess I just don't get it. I have never worked for a company where I don't view decisions made by management with a little bit of skepticism. Yet some people "hear" what management has planned and start shooting fireworks.
 
B767 said:
Point of fact, I don't get why some Skywest employees would be thrilled if the company bought Airtran. Makes no sense to me. These same employees drink the Skywest koolaid like none other too...FWIW
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more non rev opportunity for me to ATL :)
 
Anyone consider the timing of SkyW flying for FL?

The fact that it is happening during a time of contract negotiations should not go unnoticed by ya'll...
 
Serious question here as I'm an outsider looking in....

What do those two things have to do with each other?

Again, just an honest question.
 
727to7400 said:
You raise some very good points. While everyone pounds their chest and talks about scope; the cold hard reality is that there is not a single contract with scope language that can't (and hasn't) be picked apart by a sharp company lawyer. Further, no arbitrator in the land and no court is going to order a company to operate tier business in a manner that materialy harms their business plan.

Additionally, no airline would ever agree to langauage that would compel them to capitulate the operation of their company and the rights of shareholders to a union contract.
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For the sake of IBT pilots everywhere, I certainly hope your buddy Dave doesn't have the same attitude about scope that you do. :rolleyes:

Polar742 said:
Anyone consider the timing of SkyW flying for FL?

The fact that it is happening during a time of contract negotiations should not go unnoticed by ya'll...
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Believe me, it didn't go unnoticed.
 
jtrain609 said:
If I were at the tranny right now, the last thing I'd want to rely on language that has never been tested, or worse yet, language that does not speak to this situation specifically.
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727to7400 said:
the cold hard reality is that there is not a single contract with scope language that can't (and hasn't) be picked apart by a sharp company lawyer.
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ATN_Pilot said:
Midwest was one of the exceptions.
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The Midwest fiasco should be studied in depth. People who say that they have an iron-clad contract probably, in a past life, said the Titanic was unsinkable, too.
 
I encourage you to read the Midwest scope language. It was full of a holes that anyone could see. Far from iron clad. Good scope has withstood the test of time. Despite the opinion of my esteemed colleague from the IBT, scope has not been torn apart by managements. Quite the contrary, management comes begging for relief whenever they want something; they don't just ignore the language and trot out the lawyers. Mesaba tried to do that, and the judge smacked them down and told them that ALPA's holding company letter was sound.

Well-written scope is worth its weight in gold. Never let anyone tell you otherwise. The key is to simply make sure you get good lawyers to write it, and make it a priority in bargaining.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
Well-written scope is worth its weight in gold. Never let anyone tell you otherwise. The key is to simply make sure you get good lawyers to write it, and make it a priority in bargaining.
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I know very little about airline contracts and what not, so if these two are unrelated I apologize:

If you couldn't have both, would you rather have well written scope clauses or increased pay (if you were making $15000 less than you are now)?
 
B767 said:
I know very little about airline contracts and what not, so if these two are unrelated I apologize:

If you couldn't have both, would you rather have well written scope clauses or increased pay (if you were making $15000 less than you are now)?
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Increased pay is useless if you do not have the protections in place to maintain, much less protect or grow, your flying.

Well written scope.
 
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