"Agency Shop"

jtrain609 said:
To some people, union members like my grandfather who struck and switched careers to digging ditches at the age of 48 instead of crossing a picket line, there is a special level of hell that is reserved for scabs, and to many of those people, there is no coming back.
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And I respect that opinion. I just disagree with it. There are just too many guys on that list that I know personally who truly have changed.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
How is that hypocrisy? Many of the people you find on that list are now dedicated union volunteers. One of them became an MEC Chairman. People make mistakes. As long as they acknowledge them and make amends, I have no problems.
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If their name is still on the list - there is no point to the list....

Remove their name from the list if they've "turned a new leaf".

I think there's a big difference between someone who's currently choosing to not join than someone who is an active member in good standing.
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Ok, so as long as I'm clear on this... if you had a pilot come up with a union card (and for some reason you asked his or her opinion) and they said something along the lines of "unions suck I just pay the fee because I have to".... said member could still get a ride....

Yep. That's called agency shop. Just so everyone understandings the difference, there are three different kinds of "union shops:"

Open shop - anyone can work there, and they have no requirement to join or even pay any sort of fee or dues.

Agency shop - you aren't required to join the union, but you are required to pay agency fees, which are usually the same as union dues. If you protest the full union dues, then you can pay a very slightly reduced rate that subtracts out the political lobbying costs.

Closed shop - you can't be employed unless you not only pay dues, but also join the union. Outlawed in the United States (unfortunately).
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Interesting...
 
cencal83406 said:
If their name is still on the list - there is no point to the list....

Remove their name from the list if they've "turned a new leaf".
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Maybe you don't know this, but ALPA doesn't have a list. The list is maintained by someone who isn't even an ALPA pilot anymore.

Ok, so as long as I'm clear on this... if you had a pilot come up with a union card (and for some reason you asked his or her opinion) and they said something along the lines of "unions suck I just pay the fee because I have to".... said member could still get a ride....
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Depends. If I thought he was capable of having an intelligent conversation about it in cruise without getting too upset, then I would probably let him ride. If he appeared to be someone that couldn't handle that, then he would probably get left behind. Each situation is different.
 
cencal83406 said:
Well, if "ALPA" doesn't have a list, then it shouldn't be checked to allow/disallow jumpseaters on ALPA carriers.
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If I'm not mistaken, it's not ALPAs list, but the list in existance is the most commonly-referenced "publication" of scabs.
 
cencal83406 said:
Well, if "ALPA" doesn't have a list, then it shouldn't be checked to allow/disallow jumpseaters on ALPA carriers.
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ALPA doesn't own the jumpseat, each individual captain does. Therefore, each captain can make whatever criteria he chooses for who rides his jumpseat. You have a captain in your domicile at Pinnacle that won't let any mainline pilots ride at all. Despite the fact that I think he's an ass, I still defended him when he came under scrutiny, because it's his jumpseat, and his decision.
 
Todd why is it you will say something in person and something else online? Is it if you don't hold the ALPA line 100% of the time you can't get a job in DC.
 
Why should a pilot be in a union - it's an individual choice. This should be respected if the jumpseater is otherwise cleared to travel - they could all wear the star of David if you'd like...

While I can see the original intention of their existence, I wouldn't join one. What if a pilot isn't a member of the company pension or medical scheme, it's a personal choice...

Alex.
 
Gonzo said:
Todd why is it you will say something in person and something else online? Is it if you don't hold the ALPA line 100% of the time you can't get a job in DC.
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What have I said differently in person? Regarding a "job in DC," I'm not seeking one. I'm quite happy where I am. Thanks for the attack on my character, though. :rolleyes:

ahw01 said:
Why should a pilot be in a union - it's an individual choice.
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Because he benefits from the union contract. If you benefit, you should have to pay to contribute to what gets you that contract.
 
But he should be able to negotiate his own contract, there should be a method available to the individual, the union should not be compulsory?

Alex.
 
I don't understand how there cannot be another option, but i'd certainly avoid unionism where possible, just a personal choice, I see the work they do and understand the reason for their existence, but not the reason why you can't opt out.

Can you name some non-union airlines?

Alex.
 
ahw01 said:
I don't understand how there cannot be another option, but i'd certainly avoid unionism where possible, just a personal choice
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I said the same thing when I was a PPL with 200 hours. You'll come around after spending some time in the industry.

but not the reason why you can't opt out.
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As I said, the reason you can't opt out is because you are directly benefiting from the negotiations the union undertakes. Individual contracts are not feasible in an employee group numbering in the hundreds or thousands. Even non-union airlines don't allow negotiation of individual labor contracts. You take the same thing they offer to everyone else.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
I said the same thing when I was a PPL with 200 hours. You'll come around after spending some time in the industry.
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And he may not...

I'm equal parts sick of the management koolaid, and equal parts sick of ALPA koolaid.

It sucks - no one tells the truth...
 
If your reps are lying to you, then you should replace them. The difference between company managers lying to you and union reps lying to you is that you have control over who your union reps are. Democracy is a wonderful thing. Use it.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
If your reps are lying to you, then you should replace them. The difference between company managers lying to you and union reps lying to you is that you have control over who your union reps are. Democracy is a wonderful thing. Use it.
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Well, Democracy also sucks. If I want to replace someone, I rock the boat, and I'm hurting my chances for getting any positions. I've already apparently compromised my ability to be a rep of any sort. I was told this in no uncertain terms. Apparently people don't like to be called out when they're not doing they're job - they'd rather you quietly approach them.
 
cencal83406 said:
Well if someone isn't doing something - everyone needs to know. Not just one person.
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Again, politics. Politics is all about understanding human behavior and learning how to manipulate it to accomplish a goal. In your case, the goal is to get a certain rep to do his job. So, how do you accomplish that?

You could call him out publicly and embarrass him. That's one option. But what will his reaction be, and will it accomplish your goal? Human nature is to defend yourself when attacked, and with many type-A personalities, to then counter-attack. So, this is probably not the best way to achieve your goal.

The other option would be give the guy an opportunity to save face, which satisfies his ego requirements. Talk to him behind closed doors and tell him that pilots aren't happy, and they think he should be doing such and such. Tell him that people are starting to talk, and you want to give him a heads up so he can do something to save his image. This gives him the opportunity to save face. If he still doesn't do anything, then you'll have to take other action.

Like I said, it's all about politics.
 
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