99% of the time you will fail. But Ok as far as your 2nd point, how are you able to judge whether or not the guy is prepared when they just passed training?
Article: FAA won't back 1500 hour requirement
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99% of the time you will fail. But Ok as far as your 2nd point, how are you able to judge whether or not the guy is prepared when they just passed training?
kellwolf
Piece of Trash
Well, if you use the company manuals to train and fly the sim profiles over and over before you get hired, that doesn't necessarily mean you belong in the right seat of a CRJ. It's basically taking the "training for a specific checkride" concept to "training for a specific airline's ground school." To me, it's like getting the final exam for a college course, taking it over and over, then going in, taking the test and getting credit for the course. Sure, you can answer the questions on the test, but can you answer OTHER questions based on the material presented in the course?
Nah, he's not that far off.
For every new hire who has done the hard work and built the experience, is a guy who rolled out of flight school and it complaining about sitting reserve with 300 hrs TT. We can't continue to go from zero to hero in six months on one hand, then crow about compensating us for the skilled, experienced professionals we are on the other.
SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
There's usually a comment period for six months or so, then the actual rule will be issued. For such a big change such as this, though, you can expect a 12-18 month implementation window so the airlines can adjust schedules and staffing to accomodate the new rules.
TheOneMarine
Well-Known Member
Do you, or more importantly does ALPA feel it will become a rule within or around that normal six months? Thanks for all the great info BTW.
SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
We're expecting an expedited process for publishing the rule (hopefully by Spring), but still a 12-18 month implementation window. Practically speaking, you're probably looking at early to mid 2011 before the new rules are in full force.
USMCmech
Well-Known Member
Serious hiring won't be in full swing till then anyway.
Right now, the airlines (including the regionals) can afford to be picky and require a reasonable amount of flight time. It will take 2 years to thin out the pool of desperate CFIs anyway.
SkyFlier33
Well-Known Member
Can I jump in with a question? This phrase caught my eye, just wanted some clarification from the pros here
I've been trained so far with an idea that, no matter PIC or SIC, I still have the utmost responsibility for the safety of my airplane (and pax, should I have any in the back of a 172). Even when flying with my instructor I'm still trying to be as vigilant as possible, since a CFI is also a human being (except when he schedules us to fly at the crack of dawn
). And if he makes a mistake, it's also my ticket (and my life!) that's at stakes. I'd imagine if you're in the right seat of a CRJ, that's the kind of a thought process one should have, instead of "depending" on the Captain?
jtrain609
Antisocial Monster
Is ALPA expecting large staffing changes being required after this new legislation is passed?
SkyFlier33
Well-Known Member
And one more thing I'd like to add, from a perspective of a low-timer
Even with the little experience that I've had so far (training for my Instrument rating now), I got to fly and study with some different people. And from what I've noticed, at some point in their training most pilots have very similar flying skills (i.e. "anyone can be trained to fly an airplane").
However, what does seem to become more important as new pilots advance in their training is their personality, character and decision-making skills. Some people have great stick and rudder skills, but aren't able to interact with the other pilots that they fly with. Some handle emergencies better than others. Some take it to the limit to show off. Some don't think that the concept of CRM is worth studying since it's a "bunch of nonsense, let's just go to the sim and do some spins". Some get complacent as they get overconfident when flying an airplane.
How much time is enough for someone to fully realize the responsibility that comes with getting a certificate and a right to fly an airplane? Seems that 1500 hours won't do it for some people, and may be way too much for others..
Just IMHO.
Even with the little experience that I've had so far (training for my Instrument rating now), I got to fly and study with some different people. And from what I've noticed, at some point in their training most pilots have very similar flying skills (i.e. "anyone can be trained to fly an airplane").
However, what does seem to become more important as new pilots advance in their training is their personality, character and decision-making skills. Some people have great stick and rudder skills, but aren't able to interact with the other pilots that they fly with. Some handle emergencies better than others. Some take it to the limit to show off. Some don't think that the concept of CRM is worth studying since it's a "bunch of nonsense, let's just go to the sim and do some spins". Some get complacent as they get overconfident when flying an airplane.
How much time is enough for someone to fully realize the responsibility that comes with getting a certificate and a right to fly an airplane? Seems that 1500 hours won't do it for some people, and may be way too much for others..
Just IMHO.
ppragman
No pasa nada.
And one more thing I'd like to add, from a perspective of a low-timer
Even with the little experience that I've had so far (training for my Instrument rating now), I got to fly and study with some different people. And from what I've noticed, at some point in their training most pilots have very similar flying skills (i.e. "anyone can be trained to fly an airplane").
However, what does seem to become more important as new pilots advance in their training is their personality, character and decision-making skills. Some people have great stick and rudder skills, but aren't able to interact with the other pilots that they fly with. Some handle emergencies better than others. Some take it to the limit to show off. Some don't think that the concept of CRM is worth studying since it's a "bunch of nonsense, let's just go to the sim and do some spins". Some get complacent as they get overconfident when flying an airplane.
How much time is enough for someone to fully realize the responsibility that comes with getting a certificate and a right to fly an airplane? Seems that 1500 hours won't do it for some people, and may be way too much for others..
Just IMHO.
Anyone can be trained to fly however, to exhibit airmanship requires experience.
SkyFlier33
Well-Known Member
Yeah, that was my point. But: is the amount of the experience required to "exhibit" the same for everyone? Probably not, if aptitude is accounted for.
The 1500 rule presumes that "anyone can be trained to exhibit airmanship in 1500 hours of flight time, period." That seems to be a narrow-sighted approach to solving the safety issue. Again, IMHO.
OldTownPilot
Well-Known Member
Can I jump in with a question? This phrase caught my eye, just wanted some clarification from the pros here
I've been trained so far with an idea that, no matter PIC or SIC, I still have the utmost responsibility for the safety of my airplane (and pax, should I have any in the back of a 172). Even when flying with my instructor I'm still trying to be as vigilant as possible, since a CFI is also a human being (except when he schedules us to fly at the crack of dawn
I'd imagine if you're in the right seat of a CRJ, that's the kind of a thought process one should have, instead of "depending" on the Captain?
Yes, in theory that is how it would all work out. But there are times that it obviously doesn't happen that way.
TheOneMarine
Well-Known Member
along with the other question about hiring, wouldn't most airlines need to start growing crews earlier (I'm guessing late 2010) to be in compliance in time though?
subpilot
Squawking 7600
Any pilot who is worth his weight is going to speak his mind and act in the interest of safety, regardless of what seat he sits in.Can I jump in with a question? This phrase caught my eye, just wanted some clarification from the pros here
I've been trained so far with an idea that, no matter PIC or SIC, I still have the utmost responsibility for the safety of my airplane (and pax, should I have any in the back of a 172). Even when flying with my instructor I'm still trying to be as vigilant as possible, since a CFI is also a human being (except when he schedules us to fly at the crack of dawn
I'd imagine if you're in the right seat of a CRJ, that's the kind of a thought process one should have, instead of "depending" on the Captain?
Story time...
One time...in band camp, uhh I mean on the SAAB, we were in position for takeoff and had to do a method 'A' takeoff (full power while holding brakes...aka short field) on this flight because the APR (Automatic Power Reserve) system was inop. We get our clearance for takeoff, the CA applied full power while holding the brakes and then suddenly the plane yawed about 30 degrees to the left and now we were looking right at the grassy area of the airport still with full power applied. The CA now is fighting with the steering tiller using both hands trying to get the plane lined back up, mentioning that the tiller is stuck. Full power is still applied. I am calling for an abort but the CA is still fighting the tiller. It was probably only about 2-3 seconds but it felt like forever to me and I eventually pulled the power levers back to idle myself (it was easy since they were not being guarded). Tower calls us "uhh Eagle Flight xxxx... you guys all right out there? Do you require any assistance?" We request to taxi off the runway and to please standby for our intentions. Once off the runway I advise the CA that I am going to contact ramp and tell them that we need to return to the gate and then maintenance so that they will meet us at the gate. The CA says "Hold on, The tiller got stuck out there. I don't know if my hand slipped off or what but it was requiring about a 30 degree offset just to steer straight initially when we started to taxi off the runway. Then after playing with the tiller some more the CA stated that it seems to be OK now and so lets inform tower that we want to attempt another takeoff." I told the CA that we can't do that. We have to go back to the gate because we just had an aborted takeoff for an unknown mechanical reason and besides, everyone saw what just happened and there are most likely 34 people in the back that are pretty nervous right now. We have to return back to the gate and at least have maintenance check us out." It actually took a few minutes for this CA to finally agree with me. We returned to the gate, got a new plane and after all that we were only about 45 minutes delayed overall (and only lost one passenger who refused to get back on). Long story short, I knew what had to be done and made sure it happened. I never actually made the call to return to the gate myself (as in overriding the CA's authority), I just kept tactfully objecting and voicing my concerns and reasoning until the CA finally decided to make the right call. I feel that was my job as a crew member, even if I technically only have 49% of the vote. We may only have one tiller but we have two brake controls so I may not be able to steer us from the right seat but I definitely can keep us from moving.
Turned out that the Weight on Wheels (WOW) sensor on the right wheel failed and so the system thought the right wheel was off the ground and on a SAAB that limits the amount of hydraulic pressure that is applied to the brakes so basically we had around 2800 lbs of pressure on the left wheel and only maybe say 200 pounds of pressure (don't know actual number) on the right wheel. This caused the plane to pivot around that left tire.
Boris Badenov
Fortis Leader
Man this just won't die.
Newflash: Dateline: The Internet
Unsubstantiated opinion of low time internet pilots trumps decades of actuarial research.
Details at 11.
Newflash: Dateline: The Internet
Unsubstantiated opinion of low time internet pilots trumps decades of actuarial research.
Details at 11.
drunkenbeagle
Gang Member
I will respectfully disagree, though I do understand where you are coming from. Anyone wo has flown long enough can tell you about the problem they had that wasn't on a checklist. Being able to think and make good decisions is why we have pilots in airplanes, and not trained monkeys. Those situations might happen once in a lifetime, if ever. But then again, if you were on the US Air flight that put down in the Hudson, would you rather have had the Colgan crew from Buffalo?
Not sure what you meant about decisions in a 172. I've had a complete electrical failure night IFR in GA aircraft before. I can assure you, you learn a lot from something like that.
Boris Badenov
Fortis Leader
I'll never cease to get a kick out of all the dudes who think they're entitled to six figures, a red carpet, and mechanics (or anyone else with dirt under their fingernails) who walk ten paces behind but will insist that everything you need to know can be taught at Flight Safety in a hydraulic box. Bahahahahha.
SkyFlier33
Well-Known Member
Seriously? I'm not even entitled to having an opinion before I have 1500 hours?
Technically, it's 2,500 plus a type, or ultimately 1,500 of non-instructional hours not including dual given or time in a non-level D simulator!
