NAFI opposed to 1500 hour rule

mooneyguy

been around forever
Reported by AVWEB.

Requiring 1500-hour ATP certificates for all Part 21 pilots could actually reduce safety according to the National Association of Flight Instructors. In a news release and briefing paper that debunks the impetus behind congressional resolutions that equate the hours required to obtain an ATP with competence in the cockpit. "The emphasis should be on training and quality of training, not just on total flight experience," said NAFI Executive Director Jason Blair. " In most accidents over recent years, this [1,500-hour] requirement would have made no difference at all.

The briefing paper notes that obtaining an ATP requires no additional training beyond that required for multi and IFR ratings and that aspiring airline pilots will almost certainly accumulate the hours necessary for the new regulation in light aircraft, with little applicability to the demands of an airliner cockpit environment. "The result of this proposal will be to increase the number of hours a pilot has gained in experience prior to employment in a Part 121 Air Carrier job, but not necessarily improve the skill sets such a pilot possess, in fact, the potential exists to degrade safety with this proposal," Blair said.




I am curious if this new rule (if it becomes law) would do nothing but bring back things like PFT or make the safety pilot thing a big thing again, like it was for the mutli time in the last hiring wave.

I can just see people buying C150's putting two people in them and and let them play the safety pilot thing. Climb out pull the power back and you can hover in place all day with enough head wind, you wouldn't even have to go anywhere.

Hours in a plane does not always mean experience!
 
Re: NAFI apposed to 1500 hour rule

Also lots of parker time, if you own the plane who's to say you didn't fly it? I have no doubt a lot of the flight time out there is even parkered to some extent. There was a guy at my school who used to log the Baron charter flights even though he wasn't even in the charter department.
 
Re: NAFI apposed to 1500 hour rule

I tend to agree with with NAFI, I currently have more hours than the requirement and I am sure if I was hired as a 121 FO tomorrow, I like others would be considered a block head needing a babysitter, like the captains on this board have stated in the past.
Maybe it will safer, I don't know.

I imagine it has to be a big jump from cessners to a CRJ.
 
Re: NAFI apposed to 1500 hour rule

There was a guy at my school who used to log the Baron charter flights even though he wasn't even in the charter department.

I dont understand that. Not only is it stupid, but I like knowing that I have X amount of hours. That I put effort into getting those hours. I guess its an integrity thing.
 
Re: NAFI apposed to 1500 hour rule

Regardless of where you go, what you do, what you fly. More time almost always means more experience. The 1500 rule is a good thing.
 
Re: NAFI apposed to 1500 hour rule

Regardless of where you go, what you do, what you fly. More time almost always means more experience. The 1500 rule is a good thing.
Really??

So flying around in a 172 with a Chinese student in the practice areas for 1500 hours equals experience?
 
Re: NAFI apposed to 1500 hour rule

Really??

So flying around in a 172 with a Chinese student in the practice areas for 1500 hours equals experience?

I agree with there being more experience. Instructing will always give you intriguing experiences if you look for them and analyze them. I think may instructors are drones to build hours and don't learn nearly what they could, but the opportunity is there none the less.

I don't think the 1500 hour rule makes sense at all. The training, in many cases, is the issue IMO. To me the 1500 hour rule can be compared to a huge skyscraper that is having structural problems. These egg heads are putting support beams on the 100'th floor with the 1500 hour rule. Doesn't seem to make sense to me, why not start at the base and work our way up?

250 hours of bad training and then practicing, or teaching, it for another 1250 hours doesn't make things better. It makes it worse.
 
Re: NAFI apposed to 1500 hour rule

Guys, just think of it like this:

The 1500 rule can very well give us the pay raise we need once the economy turns around. Don't be blinded by the short-term goal of getting into 121; there's a bigger picture here we need to address. If that means people are going to have to wait until 1500 hours to get into that seat, well, I think that's a fair trade for the good of the industry.
 
Re: NAFI apposed to 1500 hour rule

While there is certainly a difference between a light piston single or twin and an airliner, hours spent flying does equal experience (though in differing quantities). Whenever you set a requirement for anything (be it age to get a license, hours required for a rating, age to drink legally, etc) it's putting an arbitrary line somewhere. Are there pilots at 400 hours who could properly handle the left seat of a CRJ? Possibly, albeit it very few. Are there pilots with 8000 hours who couldn't manage flying a piston twin at a 135 op? Absolutely.

I am in favor or requiring an ATP for either seat of a 121 operation. I'm also in favor of abolishing the safety pilot loophole and PFT (once beyond the basic FAA ratings). However, where I don't think the ATP requirement idea holds any water is when said pilot accumulates 1500 hours flying C150s in the pattern, has never flown any actual, has never been on an IFR clearance outside of maybe flying local approaches, has never been on a cross country more than 300 miles, etc. Sure, he's a pro at flying that airplane in the pattern, but how well that experience translates into a transport class aircraft is questionable.

I think the quality of experience and training is the big issue, though I have no idea how to begin regulating that, other than drawing more arbitrary lines (like must have 200 hours of actual instrument, etc) that can easily be Parker P51'd.

To me the real root cause of the problem is the fact that the airlines (particularly the regional carriers) want to hire the cheapest employees that they can find who are legally qualified. Change the mindset there, and there wouldn't be a need for regulation dictating who can and can't be hired.
 
Re: NAFI apposed to 1500 hour rule

Didn't all of the crewmembers in the crashes that spurred all this debate have well over 1500 hours anyway?
 
Re: NAFI apposed to 1500 hour rule

Really??

So flying around in a 172 with a Chinese student in the practice areas for 1500 hours equals experience?

Have you ever flown with a Chinese student? You will learn what not to do. I bet stall recovery will come up many times.
 
Re: NAFI apposed to 1500 hour rule

This topic is like the a broken record already. The experience requirement is only one facid of the proposal. It is complemented with advanced training/screening requirements and revamped duty/rest rules. Together all these proposals will make a positive difference in this industry.

As for how valuable time as an instructor/pt135 pilot/banner tower/etc all depends on the person and his/her motivation and integrety. Are you trying to make each flight a learning opportunity and challenge your comfort zone every chance you get or do you just want to fly at economy cruise with a safety pilot around the local airport in a constant 10 degree bank angle?
 
Re: NAFI apposed to 1500 hour rule

Didn't all of the crewmembers in the crashes that spurred all this debate have well over 1500 hours anyway?
The captain went to Gulfstream Academy and was a part of there PFJ program. So his experience was gained in the right seat of a B1900. He possibly (***speculation***) had not done a stall in a real aircraft since his commercial checkride. The stalls in the sim don't have the same feel as in an actual airplane.
 
Re: NAFI apposed to 1500 hour rule

I've always believed in the old addage of "You get what you pay for."

If the airlines (congress/senate) want better pilots in their cockpits they are going to have to pay for it.

Sadly though, it seems as the general public have settled on a number of dead people per year that they are happy about. Until people start choosing flights based on airline/crew experience instead of lowest possible price this problem wont ever be fixed.

Makes you wonder what would happen if airlines ran adds like "We have the most experienced crews flying to JFK." Of course, that scheme wouldn't work any more for Delta.... ;)
 
Re: NAFI apposed to 1500 hour rule

Really??

So flying around in a 172 with a Chinese student in the practice areas for 1500 hours equals experience?

Potentially, yes.

Having had 2 alternator failures in IMC with different students, along with a wheel brake not working upon landing, having the glideslope actually go out during an ILS approach in IMC, having a mag compass begin leaking its kerosene onto the panel after takeoff, and dealing with unforecasted weather during a XC are just several examples of things that immediately come to mind since I have been instructing (again) - currently on furlough.

Either you have never instructed, or have been extremely lucky that you have never had a "hiccup" during any of your instructional flights.

To say that having 1500 hrs will GUARANTEE a safer airliner is a false statement.

To say that having 1500 hrs will NOT GUARANTEE a safer airliner is a false statement.

The happy medium lies somewhere in between.
 
Re: NAFI apposed to 1500 hour rule

The captain went to Gulfstream Academy and was a part of there PFJ program. So his experience was gained in the right seat of a B1900. He possibly (***speculation***) had not done a stall in a real aircraft since his commercial checkride. The stalls in the sim don't have the same feel as in an actual airplane.

But simply increasing the requirement to 1500 hours would do nothing to prevent what you just outlined from continuing to be the case. My point is, there is nothing that says what you have to be doing for those 1500 hours, so he could've just had a few hundred more hours of PFJ time with no real increase in hand-flying skills.
 
Re: NAFI apposed to 1500 hour rule

But simply increasing the requirement to 1500 hours would do nothing to prevent what you just outlined from continuing to be the case. My point is, there is nothing that says what you have to be doing for those 1500 hours, so he could've just had a few hundred more hours of PFJ time with no real increase in hand-flying skills.
If you are ok with being that kind of pilot then go for it. I take pride in developing my skills and always looking for a fight that I can learn from or experience something new. Yes, you will have some who will always work the system but as a whole, people will come to the table with more experience. If you don't agree that means that you don't have the experience yet to know any better.
 
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