Cessnaflyer
Wooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
Edit for being slow
Impossible Turn AOPA ASF Video
- Thread starter Murdoughnut
- Start date
Maddog1974
Well-Known Member
I have my students practice this at altitude. We brief on the ground what you should do in case of failure after takeoff. They brief everything before takeoff, engine failure on the ground..., engine failure immediately after takeoff with and without usable runway.
We do a normal departure and head out to the practice area climbing to at least 3000 feet AGL. On the ground we have briefed two turns, about a 225 degree turn and then a 45 degree turn in the opposite direction to line up to an imaginary runway. Once we level off at altitude then we do a configuration for maneuvers, which is the same as for a power on stall, and slow the aircraft to Vy.
Apply power, right rudder, pitch for Vy and climb about 100-200 feet. I tell the student the failure will come unexpectedly and I write down the altitude the engine "fails". So next several things have to happen, pitch for best glide, trim, mock radio call, initiate turn, and I record altitude. They do the turns and once they think they are on a reciprocal heading aligned with the imaginary runway I have them call out the altitude.
I do this in the context of this is why we do not turn back to the runway. I explain that winds may not always be favorable, what if they turn away from the wind and not into it. This is always a reinforcement to why they should not do it, not a moment where "see, that is how much altitude you lose during an attempt to return."
I also point out that the higher you climb the further away from the airport you get and you may not be able to return to the airport. It is just an exercise that I work into one or two lessons and it helps them get down the pitch for best glide, trim, pick out a landing spot, then if time allows troubleshoot or secure.
We do a normal departure and head out to the practice area climbing to at least 3000 feet AGL. On the ground we have briefed two turns, about a 225 degree turn and then a 45 degree turn in the opposite direction to line up to an imaginary runway. Once we level off at altitude then we do a configuration for maneuvers, which is the same as for a power on stall, and slow the aircraft to Vy.
Apply power, right rudder, pitch for Vy and climb about 100-200 feet. I tell the student the failure will come unexpectedly and I write down the altitude the engine "fails". So next several things have to happen, pitch for best glide, trim, mock radio call, initiate turn, and I record altitude. They do the turns and once they think they are on a reciprocal heading aligned with the imaginary runway I have them call out the altitude.
I do this in the context of this is why we do not turn back to the runway. I explain that winds may not always be favorable, what if they turn away from the wind and not into it. This is always a reinforcement to why they should not do it, not a moment where "see, that is how much altitude you lose during an attempt to return."
I also point out that the higher you climb the further away from the airport you get and you may not be able to return to the airport. It is just an exercise that I work into one or two lessons and it helps them get down the pitch for best glide, trim, pick out a landing spot, then if time allows troubleshoot or secure.
Agree so far.
Disagree here. It's not a "we never", it should be a "know where you are, what your energy state/altitude is, what the winds are, how long the runway is, whats around the airport.....is there anywhere you can actually land or not, and plan a point where you'd consider turning back, or not. Sometime it maybe a "I can turn around up to this point", sometimes it maybe a "unable to today". Basically, it'll always depend.
The bolded part is a very good consideration, but not always an absolute. You could have a long ruway, etc. While I don't consider it an absolute, I do see it as a factor to consider in an overall decision on a "turn or not" point that should be considered prior to takeoff. Always be ready to flex, for not all variables can be planned for.
Maddog1974
Well-Known Member
I see what you are saying, but it is a student/ability consideration. For all my primary students I teach absolutes until they have the experience or judgement to make a different call, and then start adding complexity to push their personal envelope. If I have an advanced primary student or licensed pilot then we will discuss the alternatives available taking into consideration the factors of the day and location.
I am glad that someone agrees or sees the logic in doing this. The twenty or so folks I have had come to me for PPL, FR, IPC have never done this sort of thing. It is drilled in to their mind that they NEVER turn back to the airport. I show all of them the same routine and then we discuss it after the flight. Some respond with " I see why it is recommended against" while others say "if I had this much altitude and this much runway then a return might be feasible". Then we discuss further the factors that might constitute a go/no go return to the airport.
OldTownPilot
Well-Known Member
I distinctly remember doing one "turn back" from about 600' with a very strong headwind on take off (probably 20 kts) and we nearly would have run off the end of the runway. Now I know with proper maneuvering it would not have been an issue but it came as a surprise that we had too much altitude for the 225-45 turn back.
Murdoughnut
Well sized member
Oh, cool - thanks!
Agree. I was under the impression you were in the "never" crowd. I see now more of where you're coming from. It's ultimately up to the guy at the controls to make the right choice, and sometimes it may be a crap sandwich to have to take a bite of, whichever choice is made unfortunately.
subpilot
Squawking 7600
That guy was all-in and pulled an ace on the river card. He was very close to a stall/spin so many times. He was good to go with the turn back to the airport environment but with all that yanking and banking while low and slow just to line up with the runway very easily could have done him in. Next time just land it in the snow, Dave.
subpilot
Squawking 7600
The stall warning horn normally sounds about 5kts or so above stall speed so I would say his speed was close to 5kts above stall speed based on the stall warning sounding intermittently.
wjmiller3
Well-Known Member
I have never flown Mooney's, but the stall horn goes off way sooner than 5 kts before stall in everything else I've flown..
subpilot
Squawking 7600
I guess every plane will be calibrated differently. Here is the regulation for stall warning calibration.
I guess I don't remember hearing the stall warning horn, and the old computer I'm on right now chokes on youtube feeds so I'll have to go by memory and your account. I do remember hearing the gear horn (and some mention of it in the play-by-play) - is there a later period where you can hear the stall horn as well?
subpilot
Squawking 7600
Yeah. I even watched it again to make sure. It is on his final manuevering to line up with the runway. You hear it chirp at least two times. I am not saying that he was reckless, just that it wasn't worth the risk when earlier when he cleared the trees he had the entire airport environment right in front of him. Just lower the flaps and set it down in the snow. The plane should skid to a safe landing with no fear of a stall/spin accident.
Heck, more than a little luck will be involved in either scenario.....landing ahead of turning back, since there are any number of variables that can't be controlled by the pilot. That's why I contend each scenario to be totally dependant, and each being it's own "crap sandwich to take a bite of" due to that.