The end of aviation as we know it?

Blackhawk said:
Then what WOULD be the reason for wanting a government bureaucrat to run your life, decide how much you can be paid, decide if your company should succeed or fail and decrease the safety of the population?
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Between the RLA, FAA, and the Federal Bankruptcy courts, how exactly is that different from now?

To be fair, Doug didn't say where he though more regulation would be beneficial.
 
MikeD said:
Sure it is required. Heck, look at me for example :)



Not everything in military flying can be trained, since not everyone can do it. It's not the training, you also have to "have it" or not, you have to be better than the average person, or not. And whether anyone likes it or not, that's why not everyone.....even with training.....can pass the training needed for tactical flying. Some don't have the hands, the ability to think quickly, the ability to be cool under severe stress. The tactical flying starts with the proper person coming into it, and then the training is applied. It doesn't necessarily work the other way around.

I do find it mildly amusing that those who aren't military aviators and haven't been through the program, can speak with authority on how easy it would appear to be and how its "just a matter of a little training." :banghead:
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Is that why SAC had 300 ft wide runways?
 
MikeD said:
Sure it is required. Heck, look at me for example :)



Not everything in military flying can be trained, since not everyone can do it. It's not the training, you also have to "have it" or not, you have to be better than the average person, or not. And whether anyone likes it or not, that's why not everyone.....even with training.....can pass the training needed for tactical flying. Some don't have the hands, the ability to think quickly, the ability to be cool under severe stress. The tactical flying starts with the proper person coming into it, and then the training is applied. It doesn't necessarily work the other way around.

I do find it mildly amusing that those who aren't military aviators and haven't been through the program, can speak with authority on how easy it would appear to be and how its "just a matter of a little training." :banghead:
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I'm not saying it's easy or a little training. All I'm saying is that it IS a skill, and yes you may find it amusing that I don't know anything about it. I find it amusing that since I am a Civilian Pilot I am somehow of inferior quality to the high and mighty military guys.

Again I am not dogging military pilots are saying they just aren't that great. just that the assumption that military training makes one a better aviator.
 
poser765 said:
Again I am not dogging military pilots are saying they just aren't that great. just that the assumption that military training makes one a better aviator.
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The problem with this is they are better AVIATORS than the typical civilian trained pilot. How many times have you been upside down in an airplane, or done formation flying, or any of the other things that are "routine" in a military aviator's day?

I'm not saying they are perfect. I've met some great pilots, some great mil aviators, and I've met some guys that I wondered how they ever made it through mil training.

You can't seriously think your chandelles and lazy 8's you did for training are comparable to military training, can you?:dunno:
 
poser765 said:
I'm not saying it's easy or a little training. All I'm saying is that it IS a skill, and yes you may find it amusing that I don't know anything about it. I find it amusing that since I am a Civilian Pilot I am somehow of inferior quality to the high and mighty military guys.

Again I am not dogging military pilots are saying they just aren't that great. just that the assumption that military training makes one a better aviator.
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That's the part you're not getting. It's far easier to become a civilian pilot than it is a military pilot, from the basic standards required to get in, to the type of person required to do the full-on tactical flying. Joe Bag-o-donuts can get a PPL. Not every same Joe Bag-o-donuts can become a military pilot. It's that simple. Read below again if unclear.

The tactical flying starts with the proper person coming into it, and then the training is applied. It doesn't necessarily work the other way around.
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Stone Cold said:
.

You can't seriously think your chandelles and lazy 8's you did for training are comparable to military training, can you?:dunno:
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God no. not in the slightest. I do think military pilots have a different skill set then a civilian. I also think that a military pilot does not, by the mere fact he/she is military, have any more potential as an airline pilot than a civilian who has climbed the ladder in the civilian chain.

Again I reference the article that was atributing the decline in the airlines to the reduction of military pilots flying for them.

I'll see if I can find the article. It was posted here a short time back

One more "Again." I am in know way trying to insult military aviators or presume that i know all about military flying and training or even that my mere civilian training compares to Air Force or Navy training.
 
poser765 said:
I also think that a military pilot does not, by the mere fact he/she is military, have any more potential as an airline pilot than a civilian who has climbed the ladder in the civilian chain.

.
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I would agree with that. The only thing that would help would be a mil pilot who came from cargo aircraft; but that's more a function of the mission they do and experience gained from that having similarities to airline flying, rather than them being military themselves. There are other subtle differences between the two, but those are outside the scope.
 
Stone Cold said:
The problem with this is they are better AVIATORS than the typical civilian trained pilot. How many times have you been upside down in an airplane, or done formation flying, or any of the other things that are "routine" in a military aviator's day?

I'm not saying they are perfect. I've met some great pilots, some great mil aviators, and I've met some guys that I wondered how they ever made it through mil training.

You can't seriously think your chandelles and lazy 8's you did for training are comparable to military training, can you?:dunno:
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:yeahthat:

With flying being all about training and experience gained, military pilots are usually going to be better than civilian trainined pilots. It should be that way. I wouldn't want the people hired to defend the nations interest to be the typical run of the mill pilot.:dunno:
 
Good grief, of course everyone thinks their training/skillset is the "best". Civilian guys think military guys brief each mission like a space shuttle launch, don't actually fly much, and suck on the radio. Military guys think civilian guys fly in straight lines, watch a computer fly an ILS to a 10,000ft runway at each end, and probably sleep most of the time. Regional guys think cargo guys are a bunch of undisciplined cowboys flying through tornados in planes held together with baling wire. Cargo guys think regional guys are a bunch of spikey haired self-impressed clowns who are living their childhood dream of pressing buttons in an enclosed space with another man for $20k/year.

And everyone hates American.

The beauty is...WE'RE ALL CORRECT. And it's ok. Relax.
 
MikeD said:
That's the part you're not getting. It's far easier to become a civilian pilot than it is a military pilot, from the basic standards required to get in, to the type of person required to do the full-on tactical flying. Joe Bag-o-donuts can get a PPL. Not every same Joe Bag-o-donuts can become a military pilot. It's that simple. Read below again if unclear.
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No I do get it. For the most part. But let me ask you this. Does everyone who has the "right stuff" get into the military? Is it not possible that some one who CAN do the full on tactical flying actually go through the civilian pipeline?

I agree with your statement that being exclusive prevents Joe Bag-o-donuts from getting in, but it doesn't prevent the Bob Hoovers from becoming champion of the lazy 8.

The military does not have a monopoly on the aforementioned "right stuff."
 
poser765 said:
No I do get it. For the most part. But let me ask you this. Does everyone who has the "right stuff" get into the military? Is it not possible that some one who CAN do the full on tactical flying actually go through the civilian pipeline?

I agree with your statement that being exclusive prevents Joe Bag-o-donuts from getting in, but it doesn't prevent the Bob Hoovers from becoming champion of the lazy 8.

The military does not have a monopoly on the aforementioned "right stuff."
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Uhhh, wasn't Bob Hoover military? Wasn't he there with Chuck Yeager? Maybe I have my history mixed up...:dunno:

And as far as there being people who could have done the military thing going civilian, I'm sure you're right. I would like to think I could have done it, but it wasn't in the cards for me (eyesight). Nobody will ever know. I do know there are plenty of civilians who shouldn't even be in planes that are though due to slack training, everybody can do it, pay enough money to the DPE and you'll get your "license to learn".
 
poser765 said:
No I do get it. For the most part. But let me ask you this. Does everyone who has the "right stuff" get into the military? Is it not possible that some one who CAN do the full on tactical flying actually go through the civilian pipeline?
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The military is a lot more than just flying. Politics is arguably the more important skill...
 
Stone Cold said:
Uhhh, wasn't Bob Hoover military? Wasn't he there with Chuck Yeager? Maybe I have my history mixed up...:dunno:
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lol yeah, I was trying to imply that someone with just as much inborn skill and talent as bob hoover or Chuck could spend their entire flying career without any military experience.

Guys, ALL i am trying to say is that GREAT pilots are not just a product of the military.
 
poser765 said:
No I do get it. For the most part. But let me ask you this. Does everyone who has the "right stuff" get into the military? Is it not possible that some one who CAN do the full on tactical flying actually go through the civilian pipeline?

."
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Now you're getting into a training discussion and the fact that the average civilian pipeline (FBO/school/university) doesn't train pilots to do super-duper flying; their job is to train the mins/PTS to standard, safely, while maximizing profit. Not a good or bad thing, but simply a fact. As discussed previously a few weeks ago in teh CFI Corner regards FBOs and allowing/disallowing touch and goes with RG aircraft, JC user Jrh said it the best, and I agree that it's factual reality:

What this ultimately comes down to is money. Flight schools aren't in the business of providing the best training possible. That's right. You read it correctly. Flight schools aren't in the business of providing the best training possible. They're in the business of providing the best training possible *balanced* against the least economic risk possible. A flight school's policies aren't developed strictly as a community service to pilots--there are financial impacts to consider for every decision.

An important part of my job as a flight school manager is to set policies and procedures in place that minimize our risk while maximizing our profitability........

......They're running a business, not a community service to make Super Duper Good Ace Pilots at any expense.
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poser765 said:
Guys, ALL i am trying to say is that GREAT pilots are not just a product of the military.
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I agree, although there are many fewer examples. The guys I work with I think have the right stuff. Many of them did not have the opportunity or proper "attitude" to go the military route.

DID you get your mind right SOLDIER!:D
 
MikeD said:
Now you're getting into a training discussion and the fact that the average civilian pipeline (FBO/school/university) doesn't train pilots to do super-duper flying; their job is to train the mins/PTS to standard, safely, while maximizing profit. Not a good or bad thing, but simply a fact. As discussed previously a few weeks ago in teh CFI Corner regards FBOs and allowing/disallowing touch and goes with RG aircraft, JC user Jrh said it the best:
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Agreed with all. Kind of goes back to my initial statement that kicked this whole thing off. I may have exagerated for effect, but given the equipement and proper instruction, there are plenty of people in the civilian world who can land on a carrier.
 
I don't understand how cutting say thousands of flights would be good. For one, tons of people would lose their job. Second, millions of people would then get in their car and pollute the environment via automobile. If millions of people started to drive we then have to expand our highways which would in the process produce a lot of CO2 (trucks that would be expanding the roads). While they expanded these roadways there would be a ton of idling cars in traffic. To me, planes are like long rang buses. Just another form of mass transportation.
 
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