The end of aviation as we know it?

A-300F4-622R said:
Obviously the pay at the regional level is acceptable because all you guys either took jobs there are want to become regional pilots.
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We took it with the expectation we could upgrade and move on, just like everyone besides those who went into the military did.
 
shdw said:
I actually like the idea as is. Who needs a flight every hour of the day? I know we are going for convenience here, but it has gotten a bit ridiculous.

Truth of the matter is, if they regulated them in a manner like this it wouldn't change the number of people that fly. If the customers don't like it hand them a ticket to the AVIS rent a car. We want customer service, but not at the expense of the industry and its employees.

If it lessens traffic load, reduces fuel burned/operating costs, and relieves strain on the industry through consolidation at the cost of say a flight every 2 to 3 hours to the same place, instead of each hour. I personally think that is worth it. It will never happen I am sure, but it seems like a brilliant idea IMO.
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Believe it or not private industry is great at setting what the market wants, whether you like the idea or not.

When traffic falls airlines cut flights, as they've done during this downturn. The smaller airports have seen some major capacity cuts as well as airlines completely leaving the market (for example, PIT).
 
wheelsup said:
We took it with the expectation we could upgrade and move on, just like everyone besides those who went into the military did.
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Thats reasonable. Only thing is it opens the question of should regionals be considered (and thus treated by both management as well as pilots) a stepping stone....ie temporary? Or should it be treated/considered more of a career area, and those that want to stay can do so; those that want to pass through, pass through?

IMO, thats a big question that would need to be answered for each carrier before some determinations can be made as to how much effort management and pilots would put towards improving a particular regional. If seen as a stepping stone, many would remain running as a "minimum-run" operation in many ways; more effort would likely be put towards one that's considered more of a career area.
 
MikeD said:
Thats reasonable. Only thing is it opens the question of should regionals be considered (and thus treated by both management as well as pilots) a stepping stone....ie temporary? Or should it be treated/considered more of a career area, and those that want to stay, those that want to pass through, pass through?

IMO, thats a big question that would need to be answered for each carrier before some determinations can be made as to how much effort management and pilots would put towards improving a regional. If seen as a stepping stone, many would remain running as "minimum-run" operation in many ways; more effort would likely be put towards one that's considered more of a career area.
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Commuters were a stepping stone but have turned into more of a career job. Making $75k-$100k/yr as a CA is not low pay. The problem is not everyone can be a CA...but when hired you have the expectation that you eventually will upgrade. It could come fast or slow. When the music stops or the ladder gets pulled up however it's only reasonable to feel you got screwed. Re-regulation is akin to pulling the ladder up.
 
wheelsup said:
The job you took however was not a career job as well, you took it with the expectation that you would move on.
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Big difference is that my job was never meant to be a career. Just like the regionals are not meant to be a career position. Some people though, like to try and force a square peg through a round hole.
 
wheelsup said:
Commuters were a stepping stone but have turned into more of a career job. Making $75k-$100k/yr as a CA is not low pay. The problem is not everyone can be a CA...
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I hear you. That's what appears to be the difficult challenge now macro-wise: transitioning commuters/regionals from the stepping stone they once were, to the career they are becoming now. Which wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing, but one or the other would need to be done......can't have a "min-run" operation with career-minded or career-necessity guys, where they'll forever be paid beans and have lousy work rules, etc. Nor can a high quality, first rate operation (as things currently are in the industry) exist only on guys doing a touch-and-go there. [though it'd be nice if that were able to occur].
 
I'm going to guess that the airlines become tax exempt if there is a carbon climate tax. The government want's taxes but not at the expense of votes. A lot of things in the country are tax exempt or get subsidies, like farmers for one, why because farmers vote their butts off. How many airlines or airplane manufactures are in certain congressional districts. Not to mention the gov already knows how many times they have bailed out the airlines, they don't want to have to do it again.
 
ClearedToThe said:
Wow, no kidding. Way to answer the question.

You blame people for going to the regionals, yet when someone asks you a question you have this holier-than-thou attitude.
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I don't blame people for going to the regionals. Obviously current conditions are the regionals are acceptable because of the glut of pilots wanting to work there.
 
wheelsup said:
Commuters were a stepping stone but have turned into more of a career job. Making $75k-$100k/yr as a CA is not low pay. The problem is not everyone can be a CA...but when hired you have the expectation that you eventually will upgrade. It could come fast or slow. When the music stops or the ladder gets pulled up however it's only reasonable to feel you got screwed. Re-regulation is akin to pulling the ladder up.
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Reasonable expectation. However, you must realize that when you try and make a regional a career, you will have more lifers and therefore, your upgrade will slow due to the lifers plugging the drain.


There's that entitlement attitude again. You are not entitled to anything, especially a time to upgrade.
 
MikeD said:
I hear you. That's what appears to be the difficult challenge now macro-wise: transitioning commuters/regionals from the stepping stone they once were, to the career they are becoming now. Which wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing, but one or the other would need to be done......can't have a "min-run" operation with career-minded or career-necessity guys, where they'll forever be paid beans and have lousy work rules, etc. Nor can a high quality, first rate operation (as things currently are in the industry) exist only on guys doing a touch-and-go there. [though it'd be nice if that were able to occur].
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If you expect regionals to be a career, then the days of zero to hero would end. Regionals would be like a B-scale mainline job.
 
A-300F4-622R said:
I don't blame people for going to the regionals. Obviously current conditions are the regionals are acceptable because of the glut of pilots wanting to work there.
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I don't think many people WANT to work for a regional. people DO work for them because there aren't that many options out there to use to move up. People degrade themselves now for glory later. Is it right? probably not, but what else is there to do.

I kind of get this feeling from a lot of the "Big League" guys that us up and comings are destroying the industry. I mean how dare us have career ambitions.
 
The problem is you guys want it both ways. You expect to get on at a regional with little flight time and no experience. You expect to upgrade as soon as you hit 1500hrs and you expect to get on with a major as soon as you get 1000hrs turbine PIC. In order to do that, the regionals must be a stepping stone..... but if you don't make it to a major, you expect the regionals to become a career and have career pay and benefits.
 
ClearedToThe said:
Now I agree that 2 mainline flights per day is better than RJs scattered everywhere, but if you think that the government gives a hoot about passenger frequency / your pay / cost of oil, etc you are sadly mistaken.
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For me the customer, it isn't better. Hourly flights are ideal for me, even if they cost 5 times as much. Time is money. I would also prefer they not be completely full, since it makes it much harder for me to change flights, even on full-fare tickets. And I make a change almost every time I fly, at least twice a week.
 
A-300F4-622R said:
Reasonable expectation. However, you must realize that when you try and make a regional a career, you will have more lifers and therefore, your upgrade will slow due to the lifers plugging the drain.


There's that entitlement attitude again. You are not entitled to anything, especially a time to upgrade.
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The alternative then, under your reality, is for the commuters to pay even less then in order to not become a "career" stop? They then become even cheaper and as such get more flying?

Yep, don't like that idea one bit, sorry.

I agree with not being "entitled" to job. Yet I would bet my meager paycheck you didn't take your first job flying checks or whatever it was without the expectation that at some point you'd move on.
 
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