Log Book Question

Plane Trouble

Plane Trouble

Well-Known Member
Hey folks,

I'd rather not pen anymore log book entries if I can help it. I was curious what you all thought about electronic log books. I would like a program where I can print the pages and put them in a 3 ring binder as a physical copy. I was curious what programs you all use if you do use them, or if you have constructed spread sheets? If anyone has a good printable spread sheet that they use, would you be willing to email it? I'd just like a good program to autosum my times etc....

Thanks,
J
 
I've heard that Logbook Pro is a great option if you want to go electronic, but it's $60.

Flightlogg.in also offers an electronic logbook for free, but I'm not terribly familiar with it.

Good luck!
 
Logbook pro is the way to go. So many options and customizable items, it is well worth the money.
 
Just somehting to consider: There are, if not real, at least perceived issues concerning the reliability, authentication and ease of changing electronic records when compared to paper records.

AFAIK, the FAA has never inidicated what features would make an electronic logbook (and the electronic signature of endorsements) "a manner acceptable to the Administrator" under 61.51(a). The FAA has issued some guidance with respect to maintenance records - AC 120-78, Acceptance and Use of Electronic Signatures, Electronic Recordkeeping Systems, and Electronic Manuals - but not with respect to pilot records.

That has led to two schools of thought. One is that it doesn't matter. You can't find anything from the FAA that says what kind of paper records are "acceptable to the Administrator" either and there is federal legislation (such as ESIGN) directing federal agencies to accept electronic documents. Heck, there is even stuff in FAA Order 2150.3B, which deals with civil penalty and enforcement actions, that discusses the use and authentication of electronic evidence - if they can use electronic evidence against me, why can't I use it in my logbook?

The other school of thought is a bit more conservative. AC 120-78 goes to great length about electronic signatures, security issues and an approval process. Given that, the conservative school of thought is that, while electronic records are convenient and can probably serve as a good backup, until the FAA speaks, it's better to continue to maintain paper records with real signatures.
 
MidlifeFlyer said:
Just somehting to consider: There are, if not real, at least perceived issues concerning the reliability, authentication and ease of changing electronic records when compared to paper records.

AFAIK, the FAA has never inidicated what features would make an electronic logbook (and the electronic signature of endorsements) "a manner acceptable to the Administrator" under 61.51(a). The FAA has issued some guidance with respect to maintenance records - AC 120-78, Acceptance and Use of Electronic Signatures, Electronic Recordkeeping Systems, and Electronic Manuals - but not with respect to pilot records.

That has led to two schools of thought. One is that it doesn't matter. You can't find anything from the FAA that says what kind of paper records are "acceptable to the Administrator" either and there is federal legislation (such as ESIGN) directing federal agencies to accept electronic documents. Heck, there is even stuff in FAA Order 2150.3B, which deals with civil penalty and enforcement actions, that discusses the use and authentication of electronic evidence - if they can use electronic evidence against me, why can't I use it in my logbook?

The other school of thought is a bit more conservative. AC 120-78 goes to great length about electronic signatures, security issues and an approval process. Given that, the conservative school of thought is that, while electronic records are convenient and can probably serve as a good backup, until the FAA speaks, it's better to continue to maintain paper records with real signatures.
Click to expand...

I maintain both. The online is more useful for keeping track of totals and the like. But I do agree that it is important to keep paper logs with the appropriate signatures.
 
MidlifeFlyer said:
Just somehting to consider: There are, if not real, at least perceived issues concerning the reliability, authentication and ease of changing electronic records when compared to paper records.

AFAIK, the FAA has never inidicated what features would make an electronic logbook (and the electronic signature of endorsements) "a manner acceptable to the Administrator" under 61.51(a). The FAA has issued some guidance with respect to maintenance records - AC 120-78, Acceptance and Use of Electronic Signatures, Electronic Recordkeeping Systems, and Electronic Manuals - but not with respect to pilot records.

That has led to two schools of thought. One is that it doesn't matter. You can't find anything from the FAA that says what kind of paper records are "acceptable to the Administrator" either and there is federal legislation (such as ESIGN) directing federal agencies to accept electronic documents. Heck, there is even stuff in FAA Order 2150.3B, which deals with civil penalty and enforcement actions, that discusses the use and authentication of electronic evidence - if they can use electronic evidence against me, why can't I use it in my logbook?

The other school of thought is a bit more conservative. AC 120-78 goes to great length about electronic signatures, security issues and an approval process. Given that, the conservative school of thought is that, while electronic records are convenient and can probably serve as a good backup, until the FAA speaks, it's better to continue to maintain paper records with real signatures.
Click to expand...

Click. Print. Paper record done.

I've been signing 8710's online for years. I'm pretty sure if the FAA can accept an electronic application for certificates they'd be just fine with an electronic logbook. If not, I'm SOL on about 3000 hours because there is no way in hell I'll hand write it all out.

Regardless, once it is printed and signed with a statement confirming the authenticity and accuracy it doesn't matter how the data got put on the paper, whether it was a Bic or a laser jet.
 
Codyjp said:
I've been signing 8710's online for years. I'm pretty sure if the FAA can accept an electronic application for certificates they'd be just fine with an electronic logbook.
Click to expand...
You mean the application by a pilot with a unique username and password combination signed off by a CFI with a unique username and password combination?
 
Make sure you're good with backing it up. I just lost everything on my computer and it turns out my most recent backup was last January. It won't be hard to re-create the lost logs, but it will be time consuming.

More frequent backups this time!

-mini
 
While it's true that the FAA has never spelled anything out, either good or bad, regarding the use of e-logbooks, I would keep up the paper. It's a bit different if you fly for a 135 or 121 operator, as they have their own records to backup yours if you ever needed the verification, but in the 91 world, I would keep the paper current. I use LogTen Pro (I'm a Mac guy), which is great as it makes an 8710 or insurance sheet super easy to fill out, but I still update my paper periodically, and if it's a flight where I need a signature from someone else, it goes in the paper book.
 
Plane Trouble said:
Is Logbook Pro printable?
Click to expand...

Logbook Pro is very printable. They have several Logbook formats including Jepp that you can print your Logbook out in. Also, Logbook Pro will sign your log pages for you once you have inserted your scanned signature into the program. Logbook Pro also offers professional leather binders by Cirrus Elite.

I have been using Logbook Pro for nearly 11 years and have never problem with the records not being accepted. I know during the last round of hiring NWA was very impressed by printed records. If you want, you can purchase additonal blank pages or endorsement pages for the binder so you can collect signoffs as needed. Also you could xerox your old signoffs and endorsements and place them in the back of the printed binder.

Logbook Pro can also be run on MAC. To run it on a MAC you can install Windows via Parallels, Boot Camp, or VMWare's Fusion software. If you are not willing to install Windows on to a MAC, you may opt run Logbook Pro on Crossover by Codeweaver. It will allow you to run Logbook Pro on the MAC OS wihtout the need to install Windows.

If you are using an IPhone you can use FLOGGER to track your times on the Iphone and then use the spreadsheet it creates to import into Logbook Pro.

BTW: Logbook's Cyber sale ends tonight (Sunday) at Midnight ET.

  • 15% off EVERYTHING (except data entry service and gift certificates)
  • Every binder purchase gets one free pack of blank inserts included (Free pack of paper will not show on invoice but will be included with order)
  • Simply enter the coupon code "CyberMonday" during checkout and verify the 15% discount applied instantly
 
I keep a paper logbook, as well as an electronic in Logbook Pro.

Always will.
 
MidlifeFlyer said:
You mean the application by a pilot with a unique username and password combination signed off by a CFI with a unique username and password combination?
Click to expand...

My spreadsheet has a password... :laff:

Regardless of how the numbers are put onto a piece of paper as long as it is signed with a statement validating the accuracy by the logbooks owner where is the problem? I can BS flight times just as easily with a pen as I can with a keyboard. I don't see how it could be any different either way.
 
Just to revive this oldie, but goodie....check this out.



"....FAA does not define the term "logbook" in its regulations. A logbook can be a separate book with rows and columns for recording flight times, training times, and endorsements. However, it also can be a training tabulation document, computer generated log sheets, or any other record from which FAA can decipher the training, aeronautical experience time and content, and currency of experience. Accordingly, signing whatever the student pilot presents as a logbook or, alternatively, signing a copy of the training record ledger would comply with the requirements of section 61.189(a)."
 
CameronF said:
I maintain both.
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I agree. I recommend both PLUS.

If I were doing it over (there are a great many things I would do differently, but just talking about logbooks), I would keep an electronic logbook in Excel because it or its successor will be around as long or longer than anyone else's software product. I would also have a paper copy for at least everything that takes an endorsement / signature or is critical to demonstrating any kind of currency. Then, the "plus" is I would have copious backups of both. Scanned copies of the paper and copies of the electronic version stored in multiple locations.
 
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