Part 61 IFR XC Time question

Slugger

Well-Known Member
I know I've been making quite a few threads lately, but whatever. What's the best way to pursue the IFR ticket part 61? I assume I don't have to get the 50 pic xc hours before I start my training, but how much should I do before I start training?
 
It's up to you, but doing 5-10 hours going places with an instructor in the soup would be will worth it.
 
I assume I don't have to get the 50 pic xc hours before I start my training, but how much should I do before I start training?

Don't do anything. The X/C time is better spent with you under the hood, practicing approaches wherever you are going to. It would be better if you knew how to do them before trying to get the practice :)

The 50 X/C PIC sounds like a lot, but remember, you also need 40 hours hood time too. Just be sure to log all of that as X/C.
 
I don't have to get the 50 pic xc hours before I start my training, but how much should I do before I start training?
Depends on the time you expect to do x/c during your ir training. Most of the 40 hours hood time will be Basic Instruments and Holding and Approaches. If you spend 30 hours on that and 10 X/C, you get the picture. It all depends on your ability to execute the approaches and holds and stuff. It also depends on your location. If you have a good airport for approach practice that is just 51 miles away, you can build some X/C time going to that airport to practice approaches.
 
Depends on the time you expect to do x/c during your ir training. Most of the 40 hours hood time will be Basic Instruments and Holding and Approaches. If you spend 30 hours on that and 10 X/C, you get the picture. It all depends on your ability to execute the approaches and holds and stuff. It also depends on your location. If you have a good airport for approach practice that is just 51 miles away, you can build some X/C time going to that airport to practice approaches.
Yeah, KASH is like 51.0nm away, but they have like the exact same approaches that my airport does, so it would almost be a waste of time going all the way there and back when we could do it all at SFM.
 
Create your own approach plates based off VORs and NDBs in your area, then go out and fly them and have your instructor grade you on your performance.

If you have an ILS, fly it forward and backward, fly it off vectors, fly it off the full procedure, how would you fly it if you lost comms? Have your glideslope go out on you halfway down. 3 approaches in an area can really make you proficient if you work at it.

Another trick you can do if you don't want to make your own plates is find vor approaches at other places. Fly them based off your VOR at a safe altitude of course.
 
I built a lot of the 50 hours of x/c time by flying under the hood on a vfr flight plan with a safety pilot, and requesting flight following and practice approaches. It saved a lot of money because I was able to split the cost of the aircraft. I also found that it helped my ifr communications a lot once I got to the part of my training when I was operating in the ifr environment.
 
Don't do anything. The X/C time is better spent with you under the hood, practicing approaches wherever you are going to. It would be better if you knew how to do them before trying to get the practice :)

I disagree. I think there is value to getting X/C time under the hood, but if you do them all that way you'll miss an opportunity to leave your comfort zone, and go out and find situations where you have to be the Pilot in Command and make command decisions which is some of the most valuable experience you can gain early in your development as a pilot.

Open your chart and find some interesting places to visit and go fly there. When I was getting ready for my instrument training, I took friends on trips around Washington DC (back when you could do that) and landed at College Park for dinner; took my wife to a nearby airport restaurants for lunch and pie; flew to West Palm Beach, FL & Reading, PA to visit friends; and just generally enjoyed my newly won freedom. By the time I took my instrument check ride, I had visited 36 different airports and gained 87 hrs X/C time, 12 of which I did during my instrument training.

Get yourself 15-20 hrs of X/C time, and ask ATC for flight following while you're doing it. That will give you a head start with talking to controllers when your instrument lessons start.
 
I disagree. I think there is value to getting X/C time under the hood, but if you do them all that way you'll miss an opportunity to leave your comfort zone, and go out and find situations where you have to be the Pilot in Command and make command decisions which is some of the most valuable experience you can gain early in your development as a pilot.
I agree wholeheartedly. But we need to consider the folks who don't care about experience and just want to pound out the ratings.
 
I disagree. I think there is value to getting X/C time under the hood, but if you do them all that way you'll miss an opportunity to leave your comfort zone, and go out and find situations where you have to be the Pilot in Command and make command decisions which is some of the most valuable experience you can gain early in your development as a pilot.

Don't get me wrong, experience always is good. I don't see how the X/C PIC experience is somehow less valuable if you are doing it under the hood though.

And besides, flying outside of your comfort zone is more likely to happen once you have the instrument ticket. Otherwise, if the forecast isn't CAVU, you probably aren't going very far from home.
 
I disagree. I think there is value to getting X/C time under the hood, but if you do them all that way you'll miss an opportunity to leave your comfort zone, and go out and find situations where you have to be the Pilot in Command and make command decisions which is some of the most valuable experience you can gain early in your development as a pilot.

I agree, but only to a point.

I think there is a lot to be said for flying XCs with an instructor if 1) the instructor doesn't keep holding the trainee's hand through every decision and radio call and 2) the training is intentionally pushing the limits of what can be done, even under IFR.

I could easily fly 50 hours of XC training with a customer and be doing something significantly different on every flight. Big cities, tiny towns, day, night, all different types of approaches, copying clearances using every method imaginable, simulating equipment failures and seeing how it would impact the trip, flying trips where fuel loads and alternate airport requirements actually matter, dealing with thunderstorms, ice, high winds, flying complicated obstacle departures....man, I can only imagine the possibilities.

There is a lot of training that could be done which would be way more beneficial in developing a person's judgment, even with an instructor, than they'd get on their own going for $100 hamburgers on VFR days by themself.

I'd say your idea is a good one (in fact, that's how I built my experience) but don't write off the value of going with a good instructor for a lot of XCs, either.
 
I think the key is to find a good instructor and make a plan with him/her. I can't tell you how many students I've had for CFI and Commercial that have never flown IFR at night or landed the airplane with a simulated airspeed indicator failure or night with a broken landing light. Mix it up people and build some real EXPERIENCE, not just time.
 
Don't get me wrong, experience always is good. I don't see how the X/C PIC experience is somehow less valuable if you are doing it under the hood though.

And besides, flying outside of your comfort zone is more likely to happen once you have the instrument ticket. Otherwise, if the forecast isn't CAVU, you probably aren't going very far from home.

There's also simple economics to consider: it's far more economical to do as much of the 50 hours XC under the hood with an instructor learning & practicing procedures than to do it on your own (with or without the hood). You can learn & practice basic instrument flying & holds on a VFR cross country flight just as well as doing it in the practice area with the added benefit of being able to log the XC time. Trying to learn on your own, even with a safety pilot, you're at least as likely to learn how to do it wrong.
 
Trying to learn on your own, even with a safety pilot, you're at least as likely to learn how to do it wrong.

Ideally your safety pilot is at least an instrument student, if not instrument rated.

You need to learn how to do this stuff on your own at some point. I don't think you are going to learn too many bad habits on your own anyway. Part of learning is making some mistakes and learning from them.
 
I don't see how the X/C PIC experience is somehow less valuable if you are doing it under the hood though.

The reason I suggest flying without a safety pilot or a CFI is because it forces the PIC to be the PIC instead of just logging PIC. If he's the only pilot on-board, the destiny of the airplane is completely up to him and the decisions he makes. (That's why there's a solo X/C requirement for the CPL.) When more than one pilot is in the airplane, the PIC has the ability to defer decisions or seek input from the other pilot. This is especially true when flying with a CFI. I'm not saying everyone defers decisions, but it's natural to defer decisions to the CFI. (I find I do it myself.) When you're flying under the hood, you cannot make decisions on all aspects of the flight because you are simulating conditions that don't exist and ATC doesn't expect you to encounter; and as such, you need an additional pilot to help you fly in this manner.

IMHO, I believe decision making is the hardest skill to teach during pilot training and the easiest to avoid. It is also the most important skill a pilot possesses.

There is value to getting instrument training on X/C flights, and there is value flying these flights as the sole pilot. I suggest you get a mixture of both. Maybe knock out your commercial X/C while building your experience for IA.
 
I suggest you get a mixture of both. Maybe knock out your commercial X/C while building your experience for IA.

Excellent idea, I did all of my commercial X/C's before my instrument ride.

Definitely a good idea to be comfortable flying the plane alone. Maybe just pick a trip that you normally would have flown commercially, and take the plane instead? Most of us were eager to do that anyway when we got our PPL.
 
Yeah, KASH is like 51.0nm away, but they have like the exact same approaches that my airport does, so it would almost be a waste of time going all the way there and back when we could do it all at SFM.
Yes, it may be that, but your question is about how much x/c time you need before starting. With a convenient airport 51 miles away, you can "fill in" any last few hours of X/C before checkride, so I would factor that in. A training flt to that airport with a half dozen approaches, holds, etc, with at least one touchdown on the runway will produce 2-3 hours of X/C.
 
Get it done as cheap as possible. Experience isn't gained getting the rating-it comes once you have the rating and you get to do it alone without someone there.
Cheap wins out every time.
 
Get it done as cheap as possible. Experience isn't gained getting the rating-it comes once you have the rating and you get to do it alone without someone there.
Cheap wins out every time.

I couldn't disagree more!

There's plenty of time to get quality experience if you have the mindset to do so. The above mindset, however, will do little other than fill in numbers in your logbook. After your logbook is filled in, you'll then have to go learn the lessons you should have learned while you were earning your ratings. If you like paying for training twice, this is a good method to do it.

Quality beats cheap!
 
I don't have an IR ticket yet, and probably won't start on it until late spring, but I've done a LOT of research on this lately.

I found a guy here in Austin who specializes in IR training, and he does as much scenario-based flying as possible, including an stubborn insistence on getting his students up in actual, as much as possible.

I may not do my IR with him - I'd like to - but there are cheaper options.

However - if I don't do it with him - I am strongly considering some supplemental training with him.

To me, at this very tender, early stage in my logbook and flying life, the IR seems to be The Most Important Rating I will earn. Want to do it right. The point being I think that quality is very, very important.
 
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