History XVIII/Gunther Rall

Re: Gunther Rall

According to Mr. Heaton, who attended several such meetings with Mr. Rall, "To fighter pilots, politics didn't matter. They just got together and got drunk."
Click to expand...

Good way to end a great article, about an amazing individual.

R.I.P
 
Re: Gunther Rall

Thought this was interesting...

His new wife was of Jewish descent, but her family was protected because of her husband's status as a decorated war hero, according to Colin Heaton, a professor of history and military studies at the American Military University, an online college based in Charles Town, W. Va.
 
Re: Gunther Rall

Gunther Rall is number 3 on the list of highest scoring aces. Only Hartmann and Barkhorn had more than Rall and both of them had in excess of 300 confirmed victories.

Interesting bit of trivia though... Hartmann, Barkhorn, and Rall all flew in the famous Jaddgeschwader 52 with the majority of kills for all three pilots coming on the Eastern Front primarily against Soviet aircraft.

Oddly enough, the extraordinary number of kills by JG 52 are often claimed as being over inflated, but upon further scrutinty the kills of JG 52 (and the Luftwaffe as a whole) stand up better than any other nations involved in World War II.

I managed to find this on Luftwaffe rules of confirmation.

The Luftwaffe had a very stringent approval process for the confirmation of aerial victories.

  • Without a witness, a Luftwaffe fighter pilot had no chance to have his victory claim confirmed. Such a claim, even if filed, would not pass beyond group level.
  • The final destruction or explosion of an enemy aircraft in the air, or bail-out of the pilot, had to be observed either on gun-camera film or by at least one other human witness. The witness could be the German pilot's wingman, squadron mate, or a ground observer of the encounter.
  • There was no possibility, as with some RAF and USAAF pilots, of having a victory credited because the claiming officer was a gentleman and a man of his word. The German rule was simply "no witness – no kill."
  • The German system was impartial, inflexible, and far less error-prone than either the British or American procedures. German fighter pilots had to wait several months, a year, or sometimes even longer for a kill confirmation to reach them from the German High Command.
Click to expand...
 
Re: Gunther Rall

ctab5060X said:
Gunther Rall is number 3 on the list of highest scoring aces. Only Hartmann and Barkhorn had more than Rall and both of them had in excess of 300 confirmed victories.

Interesting bit of trivia though... Hartmann, Barkhorn, and Rall all flew in the famous Jaddgeschwader 52 with the majority of kills for all three pilots coming on the Eastern Front primarily against Soviet aircraft.

Oddly enough, the extraordinary number of kills by JG 52 are often claimed as being over inflated, but upon further scrutinty the kills of JG 52 (and the Luftwaffe as a whole) stand up better than any other nations involved in World War II.

I managed to find this on Luftwaffe rules of confirmation.
Click to expand...

Nice add here.

I read a lot about Hartmann. Another pilot who got his start in gliders (Hitler youth program in the 30's when he was an early-teen.). Part that was interesting was that he would get so close to his prey that they completely filled his windshield prior to letting loose with his guns and cannon. He was forced down several times...all from damage incurred by flying debris from the people he was shooting down.
 
Re: Gunther Rall

From the article

In recent decades, he was a popular presence at gatherings of World War II fighter pilots in the U.S., the U.K. and Russia. He became friends with the American pilot Col. Hubert Zemke, whose wingman had shot off Mr. Rall's thumb.

According to Mr. Heaton, who attended several such meetings with Mr. Rall, "To fighter pilots, politics didn't matter. They just got together and got drunk."
Click to expand...
 
Do You Know Your History? (Part XXXII)

Earlier today we had a thread dealing with German World War II flying aces...

Next question...

Who is he and how does he fit in (as detailed as possible as there are multiple routes to take) to the names in the previous thread?

1884-a.jpg
 
Re: Do You Know Your History? (Part XXXII)

Hmm not sure who he is but I've done a lot of reading on WWII aces and its just jaw dropping how some of them came out of the war with nearly 300 victories fighting the last few years way way out numbered in the fur balls and managed to rack up kills and not get shot down. You throw two ME-109s in with 12 P-51s and you'd think they'd be quickly dispatched of, but the number of times those 2 ME-109s returned to base having sent 6 P-51s flaming down to earth, amazing.
 
Re: Do You Know Your History? (Part XXXII)

ChasenSFO said:
Hmm not sure who he is but I've done a lot of reading on WWII aces and its just jaw dropping how some of them came out of the war with nearly 300 victories fighting the last few years way way out numbered in the fur balls and managed to rack up kills and not get shot down. You throw two ME-109s in with 12 P-51s and you'd think they'd be quickly dispatched of, but the number of times those 2 ME-109s returned to base having sent 6 P-51s flaming down to earth, amazing.
Click to expand...

Jaw dropping numbers until you see the reality of it all.

  • Eric Hartmann - 352 total victories... 345 were against Soviet aircraft, only 260 against fighters (that leaves 7 against Western Allied aircraft).
  • Gerhard Barkhorn - 301 total victories... all against Soviet aircraft. Failed to add to his tally when he transfered to the Western Front flying the 262.
  • Gunther Rall - 275 total victories... 272 against Soviet aircraft, 241 of which were fighters (that leaves 3 against Western Allied aircraft).
  • Otto Kittel - 267 total victories... all against Soviet aircraft.
  • Walter Nowotny - 258 total victories... 255 against Soviet aircraft (that leaves 3 against Western Allied aircraft.
That is only Germany's top 5 aces of the war.
  • 1453 total victories
  • 1440 against Soviet aircraft... 13 against Western Allied aircraft. That is a phenomenal 99% Soviet aircraft.
Below the top 5 of Germany's aces, you start to find other high scoring pilots, (over 200 victories), but again... the majority of victories came on the Eastern Front, not the Western Front.

Highest scoring German ace against Western Allied aircraft: Hans-Joachim Marseille with 158 total victories... all but 7 of which were against Western Allied aircraft.

Now... it is amazing that 2 Bf 109s could tangle with a dozen P-51s and emerge victorious, but it is not nearly as common as one would think or led to believe. If it were a common occurance, then that would hint toward German air superiority in Western Europe during the last years of the war... and that simply wasn't the case.




Now... back on track... who is the person I posted a picture of and why is he important... hint VERY important to the names listed in this post?
 
Re: Do You Know Your History? (Part XXXII)

ctab5060X said:
Jaw dropping numbers until you see the reality of it all.

  • Eric Hartmann - 352 total victories... 345 were against Soviet aircraft, only 260 against fighters (that leaves 7 against Western Allied aircraft).
  • Gerhard Barkhorn - 301 total victories... all against Soviet aircraft. Failed to add to his tally when he transfered to the Western Front flying the 262.
  • Gunther Rall - 275 total victories... 272 against Soviet aircraft, 241 of which were fighters (that leaves 3 against Western Allied aircraft).
  • Otto Kittel - 267 total victories... all against Soviet aircraft.
  • Walter Nowotny - 258 total victories... 255 against Soviet aircraft (that leaves 3 against Western Allied aircraft.
That is only Germany's top 5 aces of the war.
  • 1453 total victories
  • 1440 against Soviet aircraft... 13 against Western Allied aircraft. That is a phenomenal 99% Soviet aircraft.
Below the top 5 of Germany's aces, you start to find other high scoring pilots, (over 200 victories), but again... the majority of victories came on the Eastern Front, not the Western Front.

Highest scoring German ace against Western Allied aircraft: Hans-Joachim Marseille with 158 total victories... all but 7 of which were against Western Allied aircraft.

Now... it is amazing that 2 Bf 109s could tangle with a dozen P-51s and emerge victorious, but it is not nearly as common as one would think or led to believe. If it were a common occurance, then that would hint toward German air superiority in Western Europe during the last years of the war... and that simply wasn't the case.




Now... back on track... who is the person I posted a picture of and why is he important... hint VERY important to the names listed in this post?
Click to expand...


Don't forget Adolph Galland either - he had over 100, and I think mostly against the western allies. HOWEVER...when you get into "kills" primarily out west...those guys also started keeping score during the Spanish Civil War...so that is an oddly inflated total as well.
 
Re: Do You Know Your History? (Part XXXII)

Oswald Boelcke and the Father of German air tactics
 
Re: Do You Know Your History? (Part XXXII)

mjg407 said:
Oswald Boelcke and the Father of German air tactics
Click to expand...

Aw... come on... don't take the easy way out. :)


How else was Boelcke connected to the German aces of World War II?





Bonus points... what is around his neck? (no common names!)
 
Re: Do You Know Your History? (Part XXXII)

<table border="0" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="3"><tbody><tr><td align="left" valign="top">1.</td> <td align="left" valign="top">Always try to secure an advantageous position before attacking. Climb before and during the approach in order to surprise the enemy from above, and dive on him swiftly from the rear when the moment to attack is at hand.</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="left" valign="top">2.</td> <td align="left" valign="top">Try to place yourself between the sun and the enemy. This puts the glare of the sun in the enemy's eyes and makes it difficult to see you and impossible for him to shoot with any accuracy.</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="left" valign="top">3.</td> <td align="left" valign="top">Do not fire the machine guns until the enemy is within range and you have him squarely within your sights.</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="left" valign="top">4.</td> <td align="left" valign="top">Attack when the enemy least expects it or when he is preoccupied with other duties such as observation, photography or bombing.</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="left" valign="top">5.</td> <td align="left" valign="top">Never turn your back and try to run away from an enemy fighter. If you are surprised by an attack on your tail, turn and face the enemy with your guns.</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="left" valign="top">6.</td> <td align="left" valign="top">Keep your eye on the enemy and do not let him deceive you with tricks. If your opponent appears damaged, follow him down until he crashes to be sure he is not faking.</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="left" valign="top">7.</td> <td align="left" valign="top">Foolish acts of bravery only bring death. The Jasta must fight as a unit with close teamwork between all pilots. The signal of its leaders must be obeyed.</td></tr></tbody></table>
 
Re: Do You Know Your History? (Part XXXII)

mjg407 said:
<TABLE border=0 cellSpacing=3 cellPadding=3><TBODY><TR><TD vAlign=top align=left>1.</TD><TD vAlign=top align=left>Always try to secure an advantageous position before attacking. Climb before and during the approach in order to surprise the enemy from above, and dive on him swiftly from the rear when the moment to attack is at hand.</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top align=left>2.</TD><TD vAlign=top align=left>Try to place yourself between the sun and the enemy. This puts the glare of the sun in the enemy's eyes and makes it difficult to see you and impossible for him to shoot with any accuracy.</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top align=left>3.</TD><TD vAlign=top align=left>Do not fire the machine guns until the enemy is within range and you have him squarely within your sights.</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top align=left>4.</TD><TD vAlign=top align=left>Attack when the enemy least expects it or when he is preoccupied with other duties such as observation, photography or bombing.</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top align=left>5.</TD><TD vAlign=top align=left>Never turn your back and try to run away from an enemy fighter. If you are surprised by an attack on your tail, turn and face the enemy with your guns.</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top align=left>6.</TD><TD vAlign=top align=left>Keep your eye on the enemy and do not let him deceive you with tricks. If your opponent appears damaged, follow him down until he crashes to be sure he is not faking.</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top align=left>7.</TD><TD vAlign=top align=left>Foolish acts of bravery only bring death. The Jasta must fight as a unit with close teamwork between all pilots. The signal of its leaders must be obeyed.</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
Click to expand...


Still taking the easy road...

Who did Boelcke teach his Dicta Boelcke to?
 
Re: Do You Know Your History? (Part XXXII)

ctab5060X said:
No takers?? :dunno:


The first one is a little tricky (possibly), but the second is not.
Click to expand...

To answer the first question... this is taken from a website i found :)

The German empire's preeminent state, Prussia, bestowed its highest military honor, membership in the order Pour le Mérite, on 81 airmen during World War I. Popularly known as the Blue Max, the medal bore a crowned F for Frederick the Great, who established the order in 1740. The medal was inscribed in French, which was then the language of the Prussian court in that Frederick was a great admirer of French court customs and insisted the language be used in his court.
Click to expand...

Interesting little fact tho, learn something new every day.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top