ALPA's Fatigue Recommendations to the FAA

Re: LPA's Fatigue Recommendations to the FAA

Sounds like the airline industry is about to get practical about duty times. Sad that is took the deaths of so many before they changed it.

Anyone have an idea of when these rules might actually go into place?

Thanks to Seggy and everyone else that have worked so hard this far to make lives better for all, even the guys that have not made it to the airlines yet!
 
Re: LPA's Fatigue Recommendations to the FAA

LoadMasterC141 said:
Sounds like the airline industry is about to get practical about duty times. Sad that is took the deaths of so many before they changed it.

Anyone have an idea of when these rules might actually go into place?

Thanks to Seggy and everyone else that have worked so hard this far to make lives better for all, even the guys that have not made it to the airlines yet!
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Fall of next year.

Go through the NPRM circus, then take the FAA 180+ days to actually implement.
 
I really applaud the effort by ALPA and the FAA. I believe the IBT was also at the congressional hearing as well.

Its about time for some work rule changes. I've been on reserve since Feb '08, and I couldn't count the number of times I was fatigued. Reserve's get abused 10x worse than line holders. Definite changes are needed. I can't wait to see the results.
 
Airdale said:
I really applaud the effort by ALPA and the FAA. I believe the IBT was also at the congressional hearing as well.

Its about time for some work rule changes. I've been on reserve since Feb '08, and I couldn't count the number of times I was fatigued. Reserve's get abused 10x worse than line holders. Definite changes are needed. I can't wait to see the results.
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You mean in the audience, cause they sure as hell weren't at the table. Some idiot from ERAU even made it to the table.
 
Airdale said:
I really applaud the effort by ALPA and the FAA. I believe the IBT was also at the congressional hearing as well.

Its about time for some work rule changes. I've been on reserve since Feb '08, and I couldn't count the number of times I was fatigued. Reserve's get abused 10x worse than line holders. Definite changes are needed. I can't wait to see the results.
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What's the Fatigue policy like at Republic?
 
Firebird2XC said:
What's the Fatigue policy like at Republic?
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I can tell ya what it is here since I'm smack in the middle of it. They had me scheduled for three high speeds in a row, but decided they'd convert the first one into a reduced rest overnight (it was like 8:24 "rest") so they could assign it to me. The next night I was scheduled for a high speed, and another one the night after that. So, I get the call, notify and take a nap, knowing I'm not gonna get much sleep that night. So....low and behold, I get back into base the next morning (after getting about 5 hours of actual sleep and planning on going right back to bed as soon as I got home) and said "Morning! We've removed your high speed, and you now have two out and backs. First one leaves in 30 minutes." I informed them that they may be true, but it was gonna be leaving with a different CA and I was going to bed.

Thanks to our "non-punitive and non-intimidating" policy, I have a meeting with the base manager to "discuss" said fatigue call....
 
kellwolf said:
I can tell ya what it is here since I'm smack in the middle of it. They had me scheduled for three high speeds in a row, but decided they'd convert the first one into a reduced rest overnight (it was like 8:24 "rest") so they could assign it to me. The next night I was scheduled for a high speed, and another one the night after that. So, I get the call, notify and take a nap, knowing I'm not gonna get much sleep that night. So....low and behold, I get back into base the next morning (after getting about 5 hours of actual sleep and planning on going right back to bed as soon as I got home) and said "Morning! We've removed your high speed, and you now have two out and backs. First one leaves in 30 minutes." I informed them that they may be true, but it was gonna be leaving with a different CA and I was going to bed.

Thanks to our "non-punitive and non-intimidating" policy, I have a meeting with the base manager to "discuss" said fatigue call....
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Um.. first off, what's a "high speed"?

Your policy could use some work. Eagle's making strides. Now, we get the flying removed from our schedules and our pay. We submit it to the Union via the MEC web page, and the Fatigue review board sits down with the company and looks it over. 9 times out of 10 it comes out of your attendance record. If the company screwed something up (tried to assign something improper or illegal, or the lodgings were jacked) they'll reimburse you the lost pay as well.

Not perfect, mind you, but it's a step.

I'm told the XJT crowd just has fatigue calls drawn from their sick bank.
 
SpiraMirabilis said:
High speed is a stand up or continuous duty overnight
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Yeah, I'd like to see those go bye-bye in general.

Fun fact: In the military, "high speed" meant you had your crap together and we're really making things happen. For emphasis, you could add "low drag".

Usually, it was said with sarcasm, as in "Nice job, high speed."

I think the latter applies here when directed at scheduling. Oy.
 
True, and I only fly 1 leg. But it is hard to quantify this kind of thing, which is why I am curious to see how any regulations are changed.
 
Done PROPERLY, I kinda like high speeds (stand ups, CDOs, what have you). If that's all you're doing, then it's just as safe as a day trip. You can either take a nap during the day and get 4-5 hours at night, or you can flip your sleep schedule a la freight dawgs. The trouble comes when you're on reserve or when they mix them in with normal lines. I've had weeks where I had nothing but high speeds, and I LOVED it. Means more time at home for me since I live in base.

For us, in addition to the meeting with management, you have to fill out a flight safety report (no problem) and it reduces your guarantee (which I need to check on since I'm a reserve guy and won't be breaking gurantee this month). IMO, if you're not gonna break gurantee, I don't think it should cost you a penny. It's just another form of having the pilot think "Well, if I DO call in fatigued, I'm gonna lose $X." I like the idea of taking fatigue calls out of the sick bank, though.

Edit: Yeah, so scheduling flipping my clock just cost me $225. Thanks, guys.
 
Good thing you guys voted no on that TA right?

Something else that should get fixed.

Good luck Steve.

Financial penalty for being fatigued, nifty. I'd make a couple of your elected officials aware of the company's stance on this, considering recent history.
 
aevfo said:
You mean in the audience, cause they sure as hell weren't at the table. Some idiot from ERAU even made it to the table.
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The IBT wasn't there, but CAPA sometimes gets a rep at the table, and a few IBT carriers are CAPA members. Jeff Skiles (Hudson river FO) is the CAPA rep, usually. Most Congressmen don't have the slightest clue who CAPA is, though. They all know ALPA.

Firebird2XC said:
Yeah, I'd like to see those go bye-bye in general.
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Over my dead body. CDOs are wonderful if you live in base.
 
Well I'm not at an airline, but as being a CFI doesn't pay enough to make it count, I'm driving beet trucks here starting in 22 hours. Now yesterday and today I've been trying to switch my clock from 10pm bed, 7am rise, to 1pm bed, 10pm rise for a midnight to noon shift driving. Holy crap is this taking its toll.

I now completely agree that using a sleep aid to help yourself reset would be beneficial. I had 3 hours of sleep last night so that I could sleep this afternoon. Nope, I was wide awake. I hit 10pm, and my body crashed, but I had to keep myself up. Would have been nice to sleep 8 hours this afternoon.
 
Our fatigue policy over here at CJC has been fairly non-punitive in the last few months. Prior to the accident it was very punitive. I have called out once using it and I did not get a call from anyone in management. Maybe it was the fact that I called out on my 10th calendar day of work that made them say "Hmm.. he probably was tired.."

But anyway, I personally love stand-ups, high speeds, CDOs. As long as you have them all month long and can adapt your body to them then its not too bad. The only issue is when they throw a random one at you and your body is completly off.

I also hate it when guys think they are entitled to 4 - 5 hours of sleep and are counting on it. I have seen flights delayed until 130am with a stand up crew, and at that point there is no reason to go to the hotel. Then the guys complain that they had no rest. Well sorry, but your rest was during the day, you should have adjusted for it. Again though.. this is if you have stand ups concurrently. I would think it would be smart to put some type of rule into affect that if you are switching to the back side of the clock, you need at leat 36 hours of rest or so.
 
Firebird2XC said:
What's the Fatigue policy like at Republic?
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Without the contract in front of me, I'm not 100% sure. I haven't had to call fatigued since I've been here. But I believe, its not supposed to be an occurance. You probably have to have a word with the CP though.
 
surreal1221 said:
Financial penalty for being fatigued, nifty. I'd make a couple of your elected officials aware of the company's stance on this, considering recent history.
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Yep. I totally forgot that I'd be losing money when I called in fatigued. The only thing I was concerned with was the fact that I wasn't mentally capable of flying an airplane for another 4 legs. Now, an FO that can't pay his bills.....what do you think HE'S gonna do?
 
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