Return to Field

Trip7 said:
A medical emergency is completely different from an individual refusing to turn off his ipod. In one scenario the life of one of your passengers is in jeopardy. In the other, nobody's life is in jeopardy, or is the safety of the flight being compromised. Just a case of someone being a jackass.
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...and you know that person won't continue to get worse and become a safety of flight issue how?

-mini
 
FlyChicaga said:
So when the FA says no, you cannot get up, what do you do? Disobey directions from a crewmember, or piss your pants? Let's see... Sit in my own piss for three hours, or have an overzealous FA ask for police to meet the airplane because I blow them off... Not good choices.

Face it: A good percentage of FA's these days are absolute Nazis when it comes to the seat belt sign.

(See what I did there? Nazi reference. This thread can now be closed.)
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OBVIOUSLY, common sense has to be applied. If it's an emergency, they need to be reminded that the sign is on, and it's at their own risk. (of course that won't hold up in court if a lawsuit was filed--but....)
MQAAord said:
Thank you :)


I find that a nice smile and a sincere "Good morning!" make most people's day.

In regards to the seat belt sign, unless we were taxiing, or actually taking off/landing, I would just tell people that the seatbelt sign is on, and if they needed to use the lav they should do so with that in mind. I would tell people, firmly if necessary, to sit down if we were taxiing or in the actual process of taking off or landing, this was safety-based. A person does NOT need to be up and about while we are taking off or landing, but once airborne, if the sign was on I just told them the sign was on, and let it be at that. No big deal.
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Yup.


granlistillo said:
In our airline, crews rollaboards and no others are part of the BOW and all others get checked. So our own DH crewmembers have to gate check theirs. That policy is enforced, period. If you were jumpseating or non revving on my airline, you would have been treating the same way, even by the most patient and professional FA. You were right not to argue, even though it is a PITA.

There are FAs that love conflict and exerting their authority. I have a 4 day starting with one in 4 hrs who provokes people, and really really is not cut out for that job.
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So, if she's THAT bad and hard to work with---have you reported her to her supervisors? That's one of the ways the bad FAs are weeded out.



C150J said:
What if an in-flight Fed was on board? We've had FAs get "violated" for ignoring this type of thing. I'm not saying whether the air return was necessary or not, as I wasn't there. However, it gets pretty tenuous when someone is directly disobeying your requests in a public setting. Personally, I like the idea of having the police deplane the individual AT the destination, but again, I wasn't there.


Regardless, I think the crew did the right thing by at least addressing the issue. We had an APU explode at the gate a couple months ago, and it required the FA to yell at several people to deplane - they were too concerned about their connections to get off an aircraft with firebells enunciating.
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BINGO! Pax don't realize (and I'm sure don't care), but if FAs are being watched whether by FAA or ghost riders, why should they lose their certification and/or face disciplinary action from their airline? When I had pax who were difficult, that was one of the ways to get to them. Unless they were hard core s-bags, they'd understand that we were just doing our jobs and didn't want to get in big trouble that could affect our jobs. Throwing in that I was supporting 3 teenagers usually did the trick! ;)
 
Trip7 said:
Personally I would have not returned to the field. Why penalize 49 other people for the actions of one? I would only return if the actions of a passenger threatened the safety of the flight.
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Here are the 2 things I take away from your post:

1) You put "completing the mission" ahead of safety. As you gain experience in this job, you'll find that the former causes more accidents/incidents/calls from the CP than the latter. Sure may pilots take a chance, and things never turn out too bad. Go to NTSB.gov and query the monthly accident base. Everyday, there is at least one accident/incident filed. Look and see how many are from pushing the envelope.

2) So you have never experienced interference from a PED inflight yet? In time you will, and you'll understand the importance of why they need to be off.

Until all aircraft are suitably shielded, and certified as such, you don't know how or when interference from PEDs will happen, and what effects it will be.

Remember, in airline flying, being the best pilot or smartest guy doesn't win a race. The idea is to be safe, first and foremost and second, move the airplane to the destination. In that order.
 
wheelsup said:
I'm not sure about this particular company but at mine, CA's can't have passengers arrested. It is up to the company. They can have the police remove the passenger but can't force them to file charges or arrest them.
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That's odd. I thought it was always up to the captain to press charges. I have kicked a couple passengers off and each time dispatch has asked me if I am going to have them arrested.
 
granlistillo said:
You bring up a good point. When riding in the back we should set the example. People are watching. I always put the usa today crossword down and watch the safety briefing every time.

People watch the FAs too. Last week I was sitting across the aisle on a DH with my FA. It was on a different company's airplane, but she told a lady in front of her that she had to stow that electronic book reader. The lady complied, but felt a little silly. The FA working the flight on her final walk through before landing, told our FA to buckle her seatbelt. The lady in front caught that and made a loud chortle sound, and murmured something about stupid flight attendant.
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Me too! The least we can do while riding in the back is to give our undivided attention to the FA's as they conduct their safety briefing. A little respect goes a long way. Sure, we know what to do....the FA's know we know what to do...but I respect the job they do and they will have my attention....EVERY TIME!!!
 
Qgar said:
So, if she's THAT bad and hard to work with---have you reported her to her supervisors? That's one of the ways the bad FAs are weeded out.
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She doesn't direct her issues at the front end, and to me it is just tedious. As far as reporting her, that is not really my style, and it is kinda a slippery slope. I think she is world famous already, and yet she is still here. I mean, she is enforcing the rules, but her manner in doing so is combative. I think my comments earlier in the thread were maybe thinking about her style, and the few that are like that. As I said, we get the unruly passenger report, every single leg.
Just an observation, but sometimes people act like you treat them... and sometimes you treat them like they act.

I guess the Captain should consider the source, and a good FA should be backed up. If the captain decides otherwise, there may be good reason for that too.
 
smig said:
That's odd. I thought it was always up to the captain to press charges. I have kicked a couple passengers off and each time dispatch has asked me if I am going to have them arrested.
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Arrested and detained may be the distinction. I would expect that the cops would frog walk them out. Also, there is the matter of proof being the Us of A, and if it isn't a case of drunk and disorderly where the pax gives the cops a bad time, witness will be needed for court. A cop can't testify to what they didn't see.

If a person didn't assault anyone, seriously didn't threaten the flight and straightens up real fast, I am guessing they might get off with a little bit of a scare.
 
I had a drunk thrown off today. He wasn't being "belligerent" per se, but he didn't hide the fact he'd been drinking to me or anyone else on the plane.

After he got on board and I learned there was an issue I went and asked the gate agents if they noticed anything odd about any passengers not mentioning anything about a drunk. One replies, "who, you mean the guy who's been drinking?" I'm thinking to myself YEAH THAT ONE and WHY on earth did you let him down the jetway!

I got back on board and told the FA to take my seat in the cockpit while I stood in her galley until security pulled him off.

The funny thing was the friends he was flying with thanked me for removing him.
 
Trip7 said:
Not sure if we can have them arrested, but at least we can have a law enforcement officer waiting at the jetbridge when we pull in.
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OK so the cop will ask the guy to get off the plane...at the destination? Is that even necessary? Sounds like a waste of time to me!
 
Everyone needs to listen to the old crusty guys that are saying safety first. Go on youtube and watch some police videos. It doesn't take more than a minute for a situation to go from friendly conversation to gunshots.

In this case, the guy showing CONTINUAL defiance towards the FA's instructions is a HUGE HUGE red flag. As a Captain, I don't want that defiance to turn into him attacking the FA or another passenger. I don't want the FA so involved with one person that she isn't able to monitor and control the rest of the cabin. As soon as someone shows the slightest resistance, my ears perk up and I'm paying close attention to that person. If they do it a second time, they need to be dealt with immediately in order to prevent escalation of the situation.

Sure, it screws up everyone's day. But I'll guarantee those 49 other people would bitch even more if that guy pulled a knife or a gun and went on a rampage.

This business is very complicated. We as pilots have to remember that we are responsible for people's lives. Being extremely cautious and vigilant is part of that responsibility.

I don't like to critique other crew's actions, but in this case I think the Captain was 100% justified in his decision to go back.
 
In a similar situation some time ago, I asked the FA to put Mr. Troublemaker on the phone in the galley that connects to a phone on the flight deck. I introduced myself and mentioned that it was my greatest intention to get him and his other fellow passengers to Seattle on time tonight, but frankly I have a problem. His continued rejection in following directives and disregarding the FAs were not acceptable. I simply asked him for planning purposes what I could expect from this point forward? Was he going to cooperate and we could all get on to Seattle or was I going to have to do something that neither he nor the other 170 passengers would like. I asked him to decide quickly so I could get started evaluating my fuel and have time to inform the company and security officials.

It never went past that.
 
calcapt said:
In a similar situation some time ago, I asked the FA to put Mr. Troublemaker on the phone in the galley that connects to a phone on the flight deck. I introduced myself and mentioned that it was my greatest intention to get him and his other fellow passengers to Seattle on time tonight, but frankly I have a problem. His continued rejection in following directives and disregarding the FAs were not acceptable. I simply asked him for planning purposes what I could expect from this point forward? Was he going to cooperate and we could all get on to Seattle or was I going to have to do something that neither he nor the other 170 passengers would like. I asked him to decide quickly so I could get started evaluating my fuel and have time to inform the company and security officials.

It never went past that.
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Well done.
 
With us, it is always our option to press charges if fitting. We as the flight crew can not press charges for federal, FAA, DOT, or NTSB rules. there are governing bodies who will investigate and charge in those instances.

If say, an FA though a pax was recklessly endangering their life, or the pax, then yes he/she could file a complaint and the police would deal with it appropriately.


The last passenger I had refuse to follow FA direction, was refusing to put his seat belt on for landing. We held for a bit, and when there was no change, landed and had the cops meet the plane, took him off in cuffs. Besides telling my FA's to blow off, he was putting others at risk by causing a major distraction for the cabin crew. Funny thing, the cops had him in the hallway, and were gonna let him go... but the tool wouldn't give them his name. It was funny watching them march him straight to the squad car.

The other time, a Pax made a threat against the CAL flight to Israel. I can say with nearly 100% certainty, he was arrested as well.


On the 1900 without a door, I personally got out of my seat, went to the back, and took a camera. The pax kept taking flash photos of the cockpit at night, despite PA's explicitly telling them to put away ALL electronic devices and cameras. They always loved to take them at 50ft agl on a night landing
 
launchpad said:
Everyone needs to listen to the old crusty guys that are saying safety first.
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calcapt said:
In a similar situation some time ago, I asked the FA to put Mr. Troublemaker on the phone in the galley that connects to a phone on the flight deck. I introduced myself and mentioned that it was my greatest intention to get him and his other fellow passengers to Seattle on time tonight, but frankly I have a problem. His continued rejection in following directives and disregarding the FAs were not acceptable. I simply asked him for planning purposes what I could expect from this point forward? Was he going to cooperate and we could all get on to Seattle or was I going to have to do something that neither he nor the other 170 passengers would like. I asked him to decide quickly so I could get started evaluating my fuel and have time to inform the company and security officials.

It never went past that.
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There's your old crusty guy taking care of business in a professional manner.

I don't use smileys much, but :clap:
 
This thread had been a real eye-opener for me.....very interesting what you can tell about someone from their responses.

Oh and BTW, maybe calcapt can tell you the story of how he threw a bunch of drunks off his plane one time----just so you don't think he's too nice of a guy to do it. :D

If I remember the story, it was a married couple and the hubby was a cop.
 
Cav said:
After he got on board and I learned there was an issue I went and asked the gate agents if they noticed anything odd about any passengers not mentioning anything about a drunk. One replies, "who, you mean the guy who's been drinking?" I'm thinking to myself YEAH THAT ONE and WHY on earth did you let him down the jetway!
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Oh that was a HUGE HUGE pet peeve of mine, agents boarding people who quite clearly "appeared to be intoxicated". They just wanted the person out of their sight and make it "not their problem" anymore.
 
calcapt said:
In a similar situation some time ago, I asked the FA to put Mr. Troublemaker on the phone in the galley that connects to a phone on the flight deck. I introduced myself and mentioned that it was my greatest intention to get him and his other fellow passengers to Seattle on time tonight, but frankly I have a problem. His continued rejection in following directives and disregarding the FAs were not acceptable. I simply asked him for planning purposes what I could expect from this point forward? Was he going to cooperate and we could all get on to Seattle or was I going to have to do something that neither he nor the other 170 passengers would like. I asked him to decide quickly so I could get started evaluating my fuel and have time to inform the company and security officials.

It never went past that.
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Bravo! Bravo! This is the work of a professional.:clap::clap::clap:

This is the way I would have went about it. Use all available options before turning the plane around. Well done. A knee jerk reaction of turning the plane around based on emotion and "making a statement" is not the best use of all available resources IMO.
 
Qgar said:
This thread had been a real eye-opener for me.....very interesting what you can tell about someone from their responses.

Oh and BTW, maybe calcapt can tell you the story of how he threw a bunch of drunks off his plane one time----just so you don't think he's too nice of a guy to do it. :D

If I remember the story, it was a married couple and the hubby was a cop.
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I will provide the short version for your entertainment. At the gate in Newark departing for San Juan, PR. a FA comes forward and explains that there is this lady in back giving her lip and causing trouble. I asked to kept informed if she didn't settle down. One min later another FA came forward and said this lady was still up to no good and when asked to settle down again, stated "my husband is a cop, go die." It seems there were 4 couples traveling together heading to PR to begin a cruise. The four guys were all Port Authority Cops accompanied by their wives or girlfriends.

I asked the FA to send the husband of the misbehaving lady up to see me. He stuck his head up front as requested. I explained the issue and asked him nicely if he would help in calming his wife down so we could be on our way to Puerto Rico. He explained that the eight of them had spent good money to be on this plane and that they should be afforded some respect by the FAs. I told him I would assure they were treated with respect but that they needed to respect my crew as well and follow directives given.

The FA reappeared and mentioned one of the other women in the group of eight had thrown a glass of water at another passenger calling them all kinds of things that would of required soap in my mouth when I was little. I looked the PA Cop in the eyes and said firmly "my patience is growing thin sir."

I was aware that several of them had had a drink at the airport bar prior to boarding, but none of them struck me as unsafe to board. He went back to try to settle his group down and while back there another FA overheard him telling his group that the captain was a jerk trying to throw around his authority. He basically told them to settle down, at least until we got in the air, so as not to delay things further. This conversation was reported to me by a FA prior to push.

I had just pushed off the gate when the phone rang. It seems three of the eight had reclined their seats and refused to bring them forward for taxi out. I asked the tug driver to pull me back to the gate and requested the airport manager as well as a Port Authority Manager meet the plane. Once the door was re-opened, I asked the gate personnel to invite the party of eight to deplane. Their luggage would remain aboard (I insisted on this) and they could make other arrangements to rendezvous with their cruise ship which was leaving that same afternoon. As they were being led off, I was verbally assaulted with all sorts of "Do you know who we are?" comments and "You haven't heard the end of this" threats.

We left about 40 minutes late and had a great flight and layover in San Juan. The next day as we were standing in the terminal waiting for the inbound flight to deplane so we could take the aircraft back out, guess who comes walking off the plane? Yup, our eight friends from the morning before. When we all realized who we were looking at, we braced for the worst. Surprisingly, one of the guys walked up to me and while shaking my hand apologized on behalf of the entire group for the bad behavior the day before. I discovered the cruise ship had left without them and they were just going to cancel the whole vacation except that all their luggage was sitting in Puerto Rico (I was smiling inside). I think they had arranged for some land tour as I recall. I was guessing the potential bad publicity for the department had drawn the ire their supervisors and that had resulted in their sudden change of attitude, but who really knows?

We wished their group well and I immediately turned to my crew and as I was smiling, praised them for handling the situation so professionally the day before. The rest of the trip was uneventful and I never heard a word from Continental about the incident.

I am open for discussion or suggestions on what I could or should have done differently......and any what you would of done ideas.
 
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