D Class VFR Minimums for Closed Traffic

M

mdspytko

Well-Known Member
Hello, I would like some clarification on the VFR Minimums in D Class Airspace. I am familiar with the 3SM 1-5-2 rule however I need clarrification on the minimum 1000 ft. Ceilings for the purpose of Take-off's and Landings. Does that mean that if I want to do closed traffic in D Class and I have 1000 ft. ceilings that I am legal to maintain Clear of Clouds or do I still have to be 500 below? Thanks.

Mike
 
PA44-LUV said:
Request Special VFR. Then it becomes clear of clouds if ATC gives it to you.
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I asked for that once at OUN when the wx was reporting 1100...or something stupid close.

I got yelled at for not knowing what special VFR is or what it's purpose is by the controller.

-mini
 
I only ask for a Special when the visibility or the cx require it. To do otherwise, is kind of weird. Don't know anyone who asks for it when it wouldn't be required.
 
Yeah field goes VFR at 1000 but you need to stay 500 below.

I once tried to get special VFR for the pattern at a Delta, the controller came back with, "OVC 1000 the field is VFR."

We gave up and parked it.
 
In class D, I believe it's 500 below. Also:

7110.65 7-5-2a states:

SVFR flights may be approved only if arriving
and departing IFR aircraft are not delayed.
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7110.65 7-5-2b states:

Inform an aircraft of the anticipated delay when
a SVFR clearance cannot be granted because of IFR
traffic. Do not issue an EFC or expected departure
time.
Click to expand...

Controller should have given you a reason and should have known the limitations of SVFR.
 
swinte00 said:
In class D, I believe it's 500 below. Also:

7110.65 7-5-2a states:



7110.65 7-5-2b states:



Controller should have given you a reason and should have known the limitations of SVFR.
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It's VFR, that's the reason. Special VFR is only if the weather is less than basic VFR minima. Therefore the controller not giving a special VFR is because Special VFR doesn't exist in VFR conditions.
 
boondr said:
It's VFR, that's the reason. Special VFR is only if the weather is less than basic VFR minima. Therefore the controller not giving a special VFR is because Special VFR doesn't exist in VFR conditions.
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7111.65s 7-5-1

b. SVFR operations may be authorized for aircraft
operating in or transiting a Class B, Class C, Class D,
or Class E surface area when the primary airport is
reporting VFR but the pilot advises that basic VFR
cannot be maintained.
NOTEThe
basic requirements for issuance of a SVFR clearance
in subpara a apply with the obvious exception that weather
conditions at the controlling airport are not required to be
less than basic VFR minima.
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I'm not a controller, but it seems pretty clear that a special VFR clearance may be issued when the weather is reported to be above basic VFR.
 
Old Pete said:
I'm not a controller, but it seems pretty clear that a special VFR clearance may be issued when the weather is reported to be above basic VFR.
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I thought the same thing.

swinte00 said:
Controller should have given you a reason and should have known the limitations of SVFR.
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The reason I got was that I need to go crack open the AIM with my instructor. We did. Couldn't find any reason why we would be denied a SVFR for the pattern work other than the controller was just a male genitalia. Turned out that was the case.

-mini
 
ppragman said:
I only ask for a Special when the visibility or the cx require it. To do otherwise, is kind of weird. Don't know anyone who asks for it when it wouldn't be required.
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It would be required. If you are over a congested area (91.119), you would have to remain at least 1000 agl. If the bases of the clouds were any lower than 1500 you could not comply with VFR cloud clearance regulations. 500 below class D.
 
I took off in class D vfr, went out to the practice area and when I called App. to go back they said sorry the feild is IFR, I then said the magic words, Cessna 1234 request special VFR and was cleared in. Special VFR is only approved if IFR conditions exist.
 
turbine time said:
I took off in class D vfr, went out to the practice area and when I called App. to go back they said sorry the feild is IFR, I then said the magic words, Cessna 1234 request special VFR and was cleared in. Special VFR is only approved if IFR conditions exist.
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Or when a pilot is unable to maintain VFR and requests SVFR. Check the .65
 
I would not expect SVFR to do pattern work but only to arrive or depart. I could be wrong but doesn't SVFR keep all other SVFR/IFR traffic from entering the surface area while you are operating in it just as if you were on an IFR approach/departure?
 
subpilot said:
I would not expect SVFR to do pattern work but only to arrive or depart. I could be wrong but doesn't SVFR keep all other SVFR/IFR traffic from entering the surface area while you are operating in it just as if you were on an IFR approach/departure?
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Yes, but theoretically if there is no other traffic, the controller could approve SVFR for pattern work and then cancel the SVFR clearance if an IFR aircraft pops up for arrival/departure.

Not saying it's likely, but however, it is possible.
 
Old Pete said:
It would be required. If you are over a congested area (91.119), you would have to remain at least 1000 agl. If the bases of the clouds were any lower than 1500 you could not comply with VFR cloud clearance regulations. 500 below class D.
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So when I'm on final and less than 500ft above houses and a large mall I am in violation of 91.119?

A debate about this with another member here resulted in determining that being in the traffic pattern is considered "in takeoff and landing phase" of flight. Just curious if you saw it that way as well.
 
caliginousface said:
So when I'm on final and less than 500ft above houses and a large mall I am in violation of 91.119?

A debate about this with another member here resulted in determining that being in the traffic pattern is considered "in takeoff and landing phase" of flight. Just curious if you saw it that way as well.
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It would have to be - an 800' TPA over a congested area obviously would conflict as well.
 
Thanks to everyone who responded. It seems that the general concensus is that you have to be 500 below (Unless SVFR). I kind of thought of the pattern work as also "Except for Take-off or Landing..." Thanks again.
 
I'll just add a little fuel to the fire...traffic pattern elevations are not regulatory, only the direction of the turns are regulatory, and if you are at a towered field, they can have you do the opposite anyway. So "theoretically" you could be VFR with 1000' ceiling, and still comply with 500' below by flying your pattern at 500' AGL. I'm not advocating for it, saying it's smart, or whatever, so all of you salivating to rip me, keep it in your pants, I'm just stating a fact.

Also, subpilot, I have had on several occasions, someone doing pattern work SVFR, and we just give them the airspace, that is until there is an IFR inbound, then we have to tell them pack it in or just hold on the ground for a few minutes, and once the IFR is on the ground, we can give the SVFR the airspace back so they can do pattern work.
 
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