Clocks
Well-Known Member
Or maybe the 300 hour wonders are tired of getting flack every time a 2600-5000 hour+ flight crew balls up a perfectly good airplane.
(I'm actually not a 300 hour wonder, but it still annoys me)
FAA's Babbitt sees safety slipping...
- Thread starter FlyChicaga
- Start date
(I'm actually not a 300 hour wonder, but it still annoys me)
Trip7
Well-Known Member
:clap::clap::clap::yeahthat::yeahthat:
Polar742
All the responsibility none of the authority
A job people take without the "it's just a stepping stone" menality
Cause by several generations of disposable jobs, ingraining the stepping stone mentality.
Sorry folks just because you don't get your dream job out of the box doesn't mean it's all of a sudden OK to be less professional (Hey, I'm only here till I get my 1k TPIC then I'm out anyway). You may never make your dream job, you might sacrifice everything and watch your dream job dissolve or who knows.
Treat where you're at now as your only stop. If it's not right, do what you can to make it right.
I can honestly say I never intended the career I've had, and I'd be amazed if I have this same job for the next (gasp!) 32 years. However, I'm doing what I can to help hold what we have and make it better.
I challenge all of you to do the same.
It may not be ok, but it is reality, and this is how some people behave.
Flying small airplanes, for crappy pay, being treated like a piece by your company all make a dent in ones mentality, whether they realise it or not. This may make them feel their job is less important, and their roll in the cockpit is less important.. and this all on a subconcious level.
Somewhat similar, at least from the mental aspect to studies that have been done on the apparel of employees. Employees who were outfitted nice, clean, and professionaly, performed better, and more professionaly then employees who were dressed like crap.
Can we all put our egos on pause and understand what the administrator was trying to say?
Listen up, it's not mainline versus regional. That's a juvenile way of looking at his statement. He didn't "diss" anyone, he didn't do some janky little dance and say "You got SERVED!" or start his statement with "Yo mamma so fat..."
Accidents have taken a strange trend in the airline business.
Not understanding the dynamics of a stall? Let's "4-1-0 it!!" and taking off on the wrong (closed!!) runway? These are not good trends and as professionals we need to drop the ego and cut the "Well, AMERICAN wrecked planes so therefore EAGLE wrecking a plane is just fairplay".
Pay is always going to be an issue.
Fatigue will always be an issue.
As a professional, what are YOU going to do about it? Make positive changes and press for better contractual improvements or sit on your hands and wait for the government to solve the problem for you without any sweat equity in the process?
Listen up, it's not mainline versus regional. That's a juvenile way of looking at his statement. He didn't "diss" anyone, he didn't do some janky little dance and say "You got SERVED!" or start his statement with "Yo mamma so fat..."
Accidents have taken a strange trend in the airline business.
Not understanding the dynamics of a stall? Let's "4-1-0 it!!" and taking off on the wrong (closed!!) runway? These are not good trends and as professionals we need to drop the ego and cut the "Well, AMERICAN wrecked planes so therefore EAGLE wrecking a plane is just fairplay".
Pay is always going to be an issue.
Fatigue will always be an issue.
As a professional, what are YOU going to do about it? Make positive changes and press for better contractual improvements or sit on your hands and wait for the government to solve the problem for you without any sweat equity in the process?
Polar742
All the responsibility none of the authority
Funny....I lived that life. I went to work where no one else wanted to go (twice now). Yup, I got crapped on by my company, by other pilots at other companies. Somehow, it didn't affect me. The end of the day, I still wanted to make it a place I could stay at.
I have never had any illusions of the "career". Look around at every other industry, the days of 30 years, a gold watch and a pension with a retirement in Boca faded all around my generation, and there were no surprises to anyone watching.
None of that, however, had an affect on me and my job. Were there views, looking back, that I would have changed? Yes. There are a lot of things I have learned from experience and many discussions on this site that would have affected what I would have done.
Alas, that door closed as I walked into this new job. Learning from those that made this place livable and tolerable to me. I was one of 10 interviewing for 10 slots during the last hiring boom. No one wanted to be here, and I'll admit, this job isn't for everyone. I have learned about taking your situation and bettering yourself from the guys (and gals) that fought for what we have, and then went on strike to keep it. They threw no one under the bus.
If you disagree with Doug's statement, you need to rethink who you are and where you're at.
If you think you know where you stand or not, read that paragraph, and do a honest introspection. Especially most of the posters on this particular forum. You'll grow from it.
Good stuff, but lots of people are not like that, and think differently, have different outlooks, with different experiences, and expectations. Certain things get to certain people in different manners. There are lots out there who are affected by some of the things I earlier mentioned, whether they know it or not.
Most people do enter this field with expectations, and usually egos are hurt when they find the reality is not like it is in the movies. The crappy pay, treatment, sometimes schedules, and lack of stability are all demoralizing, and the effects of this are visible with some pilots.
little_cricket
Well-Known Member
This can be true, but the key is to recognize, address, and guard against it affecting your professionalism... Just like you should guard against spatial disorientation, hypoxia, fatigue, and number of other risks in aviation. In fact, you can use that being "crapped on" as a motivator to improve yourself, to keep tweaking the resume, updating the log book, practicing interview questions, etc. Yes, I know nobody is hiring but someday they may. A lot of luck comes through hard work... It is easy for me to say, but it what I used and I was at "good" regional.
Yes, but that is not the reality, is what I am saying. What should be done, and what IS done in the real world.
little_cricket
Well-Known Member
Ok, I see what your saying... But, maybe there are too many pilots that shouldn't be pilots. Because, if they are failing to even try to recognize and address the risks of a dangerous mindset, they may not belong with the responsibility of peoples lives. Not trying to say that they are perfect at it, but every pilot should be addressing their own personal dangerous mindsets whether it is "get-there-itis", god complex, captain knows best, etc. Perhaps I'm too harsh and don't know what I'm talking about. I know I have my own issues to work on (apparently preachy-itis). I hope things do workout and wish everybody the best
wrxpilot
New Member
That was an accident that literally could've happened to anybody at the time. I wouldn't be so cocky about it, karma and all that.
jynxyjoe
Queso King
Since I made Jesse (Smoothcrasher) read this and I'm stuck ready reserve at the airport, I thought I'd post some of his feedback and my responses because. (this is a horribly written sentence)
I think what Doug said was well put. There is a lot of finger pointing going on in this thread. It is important to remember the last few crashes, regional level were related to professionalism in the cockpit. I'd go further to say that the next crashes may be, as Babbitt said, professionalism related industry wide (cargo, legacy, major, regional). We need to be careful with our ego's, shiny jet syndrome, or dirty tprop syndrome, or bee-bopping 6 banger syndrome. Guys like Smoothcrasher and Jynxyjoe aren't real high time, we are just trying to figure out what is gonna keep us and the passengers safe. To do that we have to look at the crashes, both regional and "major".
Somewhere in all this I'd like us all to stop pretending that low time guys are just as good and professional as high time guys and the military guys
Clocks
Well-Known Member
I don't think anyone can argue that a low time guy is as good as a high time or military guy.
But professionalism...flying standard, minimizing chit chat below 10, reading checklists correctly, staying fresh on emergency procedures between PCs, maintaining an appropriate appearance, maintaining a positive attitude to the customers...is independent of experience (and sadly sometimes inversely related to it). You can do all that crap on day 1 of IOE.
jynxyjoe
Queso King
Got ya.
Hopefully, it's growing pains and we're going to "re-mature" as an industry and right the ship.
When I got hired at both Skyway and at Delta, the captain was generally someone that had been around the company for a bit and since Skyway was a new company and Delta had been around longer than my parents had been alive, there was always some sage wisdom in the left seat.
I was very fortunate in both situations.
At the regionals, I flew with guys that were former regional, guard bums, guys that had lots of experience flying for places like Air Cargo Carriers, Starcheck, Ameriflight, et al. By the time they reached Skyway, they had already gained a wealth of experience in other operations, a wealth of experience flying as FO and then had upgraded to captain.
At Delta, especially being on the 727, there were a lot of former National, Pan Am, Western, Northeast, etc, guys who when they popped on the radar, squinted and said, "get 15 degrees left for weather" to the FO then "Engineer, how long until we burn down enough to make FL 370?"
I was lucky because I was able to learn from a deep well of experience. Good stuff and unfortunately bad stuff too.
Do NOT take this the wrong way
A lot of that's been replaced in parts of the airline industry with the guy in the left seat, 14 months earlier had just gotten hired after being fresh out of flight school.
How many of us on this website, were still in flight school cheerfully asking "OMG! What's the upgrade time at Westair and how long until I can hold LAX?"
The message I took from Babbitt is that, at all levels, we need to throttle back and focus on professionalism. Professionalism goes beyond epaulets, conformity with your uniform code and those bloody Malibu Barbie blinking wheels on your rollaboard.
Are you relying on technology? Or are you using technology to crosscheck your judgement?
Do you think because the aircraft in front of you launched with a level four cell within 2 miles of your departure runway, even thought it's against the guidance in the FOM, that it's cool that you do too?
If you're truly fatigued, are you bullied into flying the leg, but complain about it on flightinfo a few hours later instead of making the tough call to crew scheduling?
Run a plane into a mountain because of disorientation? Well, here's GPWS and the TERR feature of your NAV display.
Run a plane into a thunderstorm chock full of microbursts? Here's PWSAS.
Midair collision from a loss of separation in VFR conditions? Here's TCAS with TA/RA.
Flying sick?
Not understanding the dynamics of a stall and disregarding stick shakers and stick pushers?
Not recognizing that a requested altitude probably isn't reasonable requisite to your aircraft's lack of performance during the climb after playing grab-ass in the cockpit as evidenced by the CVR?
Yes, we're overworked, underpaid, treated like outright smegma at some airlines, threatened with dismissal, laughed at our co-workers because "Huh, you're being anal", but what are we going to do about it?
Blah blah blah, passengers don't pay enough for tickets, it's only from point-a to point-b, blah blah blah, but do your job, keep it professional and treat each flight like your parents are in the back of the airplane.
Sorry, I rambled. That happens sometimes! )
When I got hired at both Skyway and at Delta, the captain was generally someone that had been around the company for a bit and since Skyway was a new company and Delta had been around longer than my parents had been alive, there was always some sage wisdom in the left seat.
I was very fortunate in both situations.
At the regionals, I flew with guys that were former regional, guard bums, guys that had lots of experience flying for places like Air Cargo Carriers, Starcheck, Ameriflight, et al. By the time they reached Skyway, they had already gained a wealth of experience in other operations, a wealth of experience flying as FO and then had upgraded to captain.
At Delta, especially being on the 727, there were a lot of former National, Pan Am, Western, Northeast, etc, guys who when they popped on the radar, squinted and said, "get 15 degrees left for weather" to the FO then "Engineer, how long until we burn down enough to make FL 370?"
I was lucky because I was able to learn from a deep well of experience. Good stuff and unfortunately bad stuff too.
Do NOT take this the wrong way
A lot of that's been replaced in parts of the airline industry with the guy in the left seat, 14 months earlier had just gotten hired after being fresh out of flight school.
How many of us on this website, were still in flight school cheerfully asking "OMG! What's the upgrade time at Westair and how long until I can hold LAX?"
The message I took from Babbitt is that, at all levels, we need to throttle back and focus on professionalism. Professionalism goes beyond epaulets, conformity with your uniform code and those bloody Malibu Barbie blinking wheels on your rollaboard.
Are you relying on technology? Or are you using technology to crosscheck your judgement?
Do you think because the aircraft in front of you launched with a level four cell within 2 miles of your departure runway, even thought it's against the guidance in the FOM, that it's cool that you do too?
If you're truly fatigued, are you bullied into flying the leg, but complain about it on flightinfo a few hours later instead of making the tough call to crew scheduling?
Run a plane into a mountain because of disorientation? Well, here's GPWS and the TERR feature of your NAV display.
Run a plane into a thunderstorm chock full of microbursts? Here's PWSAS.
Midair collision from a loss of separation in VFR conditions? Here's TCAS with TA/RA.
Flying sick?
Not understanding the dynamics of a stall and disregarding stick shakers and stick pushers?
Not recognizing that a requested altitude probably isn't reasonable requisite to your aircraft's lack of performance during the climb after playing grab-ass in the cockpit as evidenced by the CVR?
Yes, we're overworked, underpaid, treated like outright smegma at some airlines, threatened with dismissal, laughed at our co-workers because "Huh, you're being anal", but what are we going to do about it?
Blah blah blah, passengers don't pay enough for tickets, it's only from point-a to point-b, blah blah blah, but do your job, keep it professional and treat each flight like your parents are in the back of the airplane.
Sorry, I rambled. That happens sometimes! )
Well said!
Excellent comment here. Very much agree with this, with many of the pilots I see today.
