meritflyer
Well-Known Member
Many of the commerical regulations are based off part 91.
We used it [part 91] often in airline training.
91.175
- Thread starter Wm226
- Start date
Many of the commerical regulations are based off part 91.
We used it [part 91] often in airline training.
USMCmech
Well-Known Member
Whenever our pilots were done with their flying duties (post flight debrief, ect) they were expected to assist us mechs with basic tasks to get the job finished. Nobody went home untill the entire job was done (Officers, NCOs, junior enlisted). Anybody with a 5th grade education can wipe bugs off the windscreen, inventory tools, wing walk, ect. If a helo detachment is on a DDG/FFG there may only be a dozen mechs, and everybody pitches in to get the job done. It's not unheard of to see a Lt helping change an engine.
I always had the utmost respect for the officers who took an interest in how their troops did their jobs. I've had several of my OICs assist me on a job so they could learn if I had all the tools and equipment I needed. It was these guys who I would go the extra mile for.
The Officers who stood around with their thumbs up their butt while we were busting ours to get the job done earned my disdain. For those guys we did what was required, nothing more.
Hacker15e
Who am I? Where are my pants?
Let me first say that I was a Maintenance Officer for several years before I ever went to pilot training, so I have a good handle on what it takes to fix airplanes. I'm fully aware that maintainers are dedicated, motivated, and bust their humps to get airplanes in the air. They have the highest of my respect for the long and hard hours they work. Unfortunately, I also have a good idea of what the "other side of the house" (ergo, pilots) look like to the average wrench-turner.
The reality is that most maintainers have no idea what pilots actually do. The problem here is that most maintainers think my day will go something like this:
- Show up to work 30 minutes prior (in my BMW, Jag, Mercedes, etc), check the weather, pull out my Breitling and say "hack" with some other pilots, put on my G-suit, walk out to the jet.
- Takeoff and go tear-assing through the windswept heights, pulling Gs and looking cool to chicks.
- Land, hand a broken jet back to the crew chief, then go back to the bar to have a beer and slap each other on the back for what a cool time we had turnin' and burnin' today. Go home and kick back and watch TV the rest of the afternoon.
Unfortunately, they're not aware of what my day really looks like -- that I showed up to work 6 hours prior to my takeoff (and not a minute earlier because of my min-turn crewrest time from the previous day). I spent 4 hours planning the sortie (yes, that's right...3 x the amount of time actually spent in the air is spent deciding what we're going to do, how we're going to do it, and creating the in-flight paper products that allow us to execute that plan), and then another hour briefing up the mission.
During that 1.5 of "playtime"...well, it's not even worth getting into the challenges of that part of the job. For argument's sake (and this couldn't be further from the actual truth), we'll just say that I did spend that 90 minutes chasing clouds and going supersonic and generally having fun.
Then, after the 1.5 sortie, I spent two/three more hours in the vault debriefing -- picking apart what went wrong in excruciating detail so we can all learn from it. Of course, that's just if it was a regular "continuation training" mission -- if it was an upgrade, then we have another hour or two of instructor debrief after I'm done with my debrief.
THEN....I get to go do my "desk job"...you know, the one that easily has enough work to be a full time job, but I end up having to do it in just the leftover scraps of time that I have remaining before I have to leave work for my crew duty day. This job is the one that actually provides the material that goes on my performance report and eventually (maybe) gets me promoted, and (maybe) allows me to continue staying in jobs where I fly instead of being farmed off to a desk somewhere full time. So, it's not like I can sluff off the work that I have to do, because it's actually the only thing I'm objectively measured with as an officer. Perhaps here I even have some enlisted troops who I supervise, who are the actual backbone of the operation, and ensure that I don't forget things or look bad in front of my boss. I need to take care of them, of course, because they take care of me in numerous ways.
So, I'm not really sure at what point I was supposed to go get off my fat, lazy pilot officer ass and at least show the maintainers that I care what they do by turning wrenches or wiping canopies during all of my free time. Maybe you could help point out to me when that time in my day was.
The reality is, if I HAD some free time, I'd gladly go out there and help the maintainers out. I did that numerous times while on deployment to Bagram because sometimes I actually *didn't* have anything else pressing to do. Unfortunately, that just isn't the day-to-day reality of things.
It has nothing to do with respect or disrespect, or being lazy, or arrogance, or any other label you want to put on it. It has everything to do with only 24 hours being in a day and all of us having a job to do.
The reality is that most maintainers have no idea what pilots actually do. The problem here is that most maintainers think my day will go something like this:
- Show up to work 30 minutes prior (in my BMW, Jag, Mercedes, etc), check the weather, pull out my Breitling and say "hack" with some other pilots, put on my G-suit, walk out to the jet.
- Takeoff and go tear-assing through the windswept heights, pulling Gs and looking cool to chicks.
- Land, hand a broken jet back to the crew chief, then go back to the bar to have a beer and slap each other on the back for what a cool time we had turnin' and burnin' today. Go home and kick back and watch TV the rest of the afternoon.
Unfortunately, they're not aware of what my day really looks like -- that I showed up to work 6 hours prior to my takeoff (and not a minute earlier because of my min-turn crewrest time from the previous day). I spent 4 hours planning the sortie (yes, that's right...3 x the amount of time actually spent in the air is spent deciding what we're going to do, how we're going to do it, and creating the in-flight paper products that allow us to execute that plan), and then another hour briefing up the mission.
During that 1.5 of "playtime"...well, it's not even worth getting into the challenges of that part of the job. For argument's sake (and this couldn't be further from the actual truth), we'll just say that I did spend that 90 minutes chasing clouds and going supersonic and generally having fun.
Then, after the 1.5 sortie, I spent two/three more hours in the vault debriefing -- picking apart what went wrong in excruciating detail so we can all learn from it. Of course, that's just if it was a regular "continuation training" mission -- if it was an upgrade, then we have another hour or two of instructor debrief after I'm done with my debrief.
THEN....I get to go do my "desk job"...you know, the one that easily has enough work to be a full time job, but I end up having to do it in just the leftover scraps of time that I have remaining before I have to leave work for my crew duty day. This job is the one that actually provides the material that goes on my performance report and eventually (maybe) gets me promoted, and (maybe) allows me to continue staying in jobs where I fly instead of being farmed off to a desk somewhere full time. So, it's not like I can sluff off the work that I have to do, because it's actually the only thing I'm objectively measured with as an officer. Perhaps here I even have some enlisted troops who I supervise, who are the actual backbone of the operation, and ensure that I don't forget things or look bad in front of my boss. I need to take care of them, of course, because they take care of me in numerous ways.
So, I'm not really sure at what point I was supposed to go get off my fat, lazy pilot officer ass and at least show the maintainers that I care what they do by turning wrenches or wiping canopies during all of my free time. Maybe you could help point out to me when that time in my day was.
The reality is, if I HAD some free time, I'd gladly go out there and help the maintainers out. I did that numerous times while on deployment to Bagram because sometimes I actually *didn't* have anything else pressing to do. Unfortunately, that just isn't the day-to-day reality of things.
It has nothing to do with respect or disrespect, or being lazy, or arrogance, or any other label you want to put on it. It has everything to do with only 24 hours being in a day and all of us having a job to do.
Divine Wind
New Member
Back in the early 90's when we first began training squadron exchange programs, the Navy/Marine pilots who went Air Force did not enjoy it. It quickly became known as a "bad deal" as far as exchange tours went. The Air Force pilots who came to NAS Whiting Field's VT-3 loved it. Although I never did the exchange, my understanding is MikeD's statement is very close to the truth.
Whereas Naval Aviation gives pilots lots of latitude, they also have the caveat of nailing them for "poor headwork". I recall two FNAEB's where pilots got their wings clipped for "poor headwork" even though no actual rules were broken. One was in another T-34C squadron at Whiting where a LCDR did night aerobatics on a Basic Instrument flight. The student thought it was "awesome" and told all of his friends. It finally got up to the Commodore who came down on the LCDR. They didn't pull his wings, but he ended up flying a desk for the rest of his training command tour.
The other was an F-14 over Point Loma at 1000' a couple years later. Some rich guy living on Point Loma (a very rich neighborhood in San Diego) reported an F-14 had buzzed his house. As many would expect, buzzing aka flat-hatting is strictly forboten. An investigation ensued. The pilot was found to be legally flying exactly 1000' AGL over Point Loma. However, they nailed him on the headwork issue. As the Admiral stated and sent out to all Navy/Marine Corps pilots (paraphrased): "Naval Aviators have a responsibility to not only follow all the rules, but also to ensure there is no reason for a member of the public to think they were acting with impropriety."
I know some Sea Lawyers out there might take a different view, but after much thought (not to mention a good amount of maturity) I have to agree with the Admiral's position. As Naval Officers we should be held to a higher standard. It's the Spiderman rule: "With great power comes great responsibility".
USMCmech
Well-Known Member
Believe me, us mechs know that the pilots have a TON of work that keeps them busy, and it's not their job to turn wrenches with us. In fact an O-3 taging along asking questions useually slows us down. However, a genuine interest in their subordinates makes all the difference in the world.
As in everything in life, it is not someone's actions, but the attitude behind them.
Hacker15e
Who am I? Where are my pants?
Completely 100% agree.
falconvalley
Absentee Dad of the OOTSK, Runner, Cat Frustrator
This m/x guy doesn't think you guys are lazy.
germb747
Well-Known Member
I guess I was really thinking about technical orders. Not "regulations", per se, but one can bet their bottom dollar the Dash 1 has the force of law. Here's a "fair use" quote from mine:
The flight manual takes a positive approach and normally states only what you can do. Unusual operations or configurations (such as asymmetrical loading) are prohibited unless specifically covered herein. Clearance from higher headquarters must be obtained before any questionable operation, which is not specifically permitted in this manual, is attempted.
Hacker15e
Who am I? Where are my pants?
That's a valid point, and that's what's printed in the front of my -1 also.
Unfortunately, people aren't referring to -1s when they generally make this argument. They're generally talking about the types of activities covered in 11-202V3 and the like...and that type of verbiage just isn't in there (or any other AFI or AFMAN).
In general, it is an accurate depiction of the USAF's mentality and makes for a good comparison against the USN's mentality. It just isn't backed up by the black-and-white that people claim it is.
.