A little trouble with landings -- From a Student

TXTBOOK

TXTBOOK

Well-Known Member
I just passed 18 hours today, and I'm having a little trouble with landings. I'm flying out of WHP but doing pattern work at VNY in a C172M.

I tend to always stay high throughout the approach, never even coming close to touching down on the displaced runway chevrons/arrows. I know I'm not supposed to touch down there, I just mean I'm high. I'm touching down just past the numbers, but I think my approaches are like a slamdunk type. I'm high, so I lower the nose a little, and this gets me down but I gain a little airspeed. The result is that I am actually touching down faster than I want (I think). Then, when I touch down, for some reason, the airplane rolls either right or left. Maybe this is wind, but we never had more than 6kts of a 30 degree off center wind, and for one or two of the landings, wind was calm. Almost every landing today with my instructor ended with "My Flight Controls" and me wondering what the heck made the airplane roll to the left/right just after touchdown. Obviously my instructor and I talk about it and we are working on it together, but I wondered what everyone else thought, too.

On the other hand, my instructor lands smoothly and perfectly every time (he did a couple today to show me what it should look like), and the sight picture during his landings is considerably different to me. To my very untrained eye, I'm convinced he is going to land on the displaced threshold as we cross the airport fence. Of course we never do, but I can never seem to reproduce that sight picture during my own landings. Maybe it's a comfort thing.

Granted, this is only the second or third lesson dedicated to TO/L but I'm getting frusturated. I did 5 landings today, 2 go arounds, and not one of them I am proud of. I suppose it's better that I'm high rather than low, but I'm definitely missing something.

Any ideas, tips, or otherwise words of encouragement?

Thanks for the help,

Matt
 
Try dragging it in low, tell your instructor you want to try it.

You won't know is right until you error on both sides of the approach path.
 
Thanks for the encouragement. Maybe I'll ask for 16R next time, and if I'm lucky, I just land long and low and try to really hold it off and land with as slow of an airspeed as possible.
 
Here is what works well for me that has let me win two spot landing contest. For me speed is key. To get used to this approach fly a longer downwind so that once you turn base and final you will be a nice long final. Once your on final make sure that you are at the airplanes approach speed. I like to bring it in a little slower than normal. I usually always use the short field approach speed which is 55 kts instead of 60 kts in a 152. Once your set at that speed use the throttle to keep your intending landing spot in the window. If you look like your coming in a little high use a little less throttle and let the nose drop to hold your speed. If your a little low use a little more power and raise the nose to hold your speed. I always aim maybe 50 short of my intended target to compensate for the flare. Just remember that throttle controls altitude and pitch controls airspeed in this instance and you will be golden.
 
TXTBOOK said:
I'm high, so I lower the nose a little, and this gets me down but I gain a little airspeed. The result is that I am actually touching down faster than I want (I think).
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First off, relax... you are only beginning and it is normal to have problems at this stage of your training.

In the above comment, you should not only lower the nose for path control but also simultaneously reduce power to prevent a buildup of airspeed.
 
Here we go... :popcorn:
Click to expand...


Ok so it doesnt start.. to be techincally correct the only time pitch controls airspeed is when power is fixed which isnt true in this case. BUT... remembering it that way makes life easier for student pilots.. at least it did when my primary instructor told me that.
 
In the above comment, you should not only lower the nose for path control but also simultaneously reduce power to prevent a buildup of airspeed.
Click to expand...


Now to be fair I did say
If you look like your coming in a little high use a little less throttle and let the nose drop to hold your speed.
Click to expand...
so I included that fact the two are intertwined maybe I just didnt word it the best way
 
Jbroz04 said:
Ok so it doesnt start.. to be techincally correct the only time pitch controls airspeed is when power is fixed which isnt true in this case. BUT... remembering it that way makes life easier for student pilots.. at least it did when my primary instructor told me that.
Click to expand...

All you need to know is: user fees.
 
Gonna add my 2 cents despite the onslaught of disagreeable posts to follow.

Trim for approach speed and use power to control rate of descent. Hand on the yoke to stabilize the airplane at the proper speed and path until the roundout and flare. Thats the best way I can describe it, but as I said before just keep at it and listen to your instructor.
 
All you need to know is: user fees.
As previously discussed I am againt user fees. They aren't the solution. But this isnt the thread from that so I'm not sure why you brought it up Mike.
 
Jbroz04 said:
All you need to know is: user fees.
As previously discussed I am againt user fees. They aren't the solution. But this isnt the thread from that so I'm not sure why you brought it up Mike.
Click to expand...

I think it was a joke.

Thanks for the advice. I look forward to my next lesson so I can improve on my ability.

Hopefully this thread will be able to continue on target as I really value what JC members say. However, it's not looking good.
 
I am going to recommend that you take a moment to chair fly the very end of your approach. Picture this....Make sure that for the last bit you shift your view to the far end of the runway (follow the center lines.) Don't stare at the nose of the airplane when you are landing. Once you are certain that you are looking toward the end of the runway, now its time to fly the airplane. Use your feet to keep "pointing" the nose toward the end of the runway, and use the ailerons to keep the airplane centered over the middle of the runway.

Many people tend to fixate on the cowl of the aircraft at the landing point. Doing so will cause you to lose track of where you really are. Maybe that is why it looked different when your CFI landed than when you did... yo may have been looking at different sight pictures since you weren't flying/fixating.


Also.... take some time to relax. Everybody has issues landing at first. You'll get it. We all were there at some point! Enjoy the fact that you are flying!:)
 
Jbroz04 said:
Ok so it doesnt start.. to be techincally correct the only time pitch controls airspeed is when power is fixed which isnt true in this case. BUT... remembering it that way makes life easier for student pilots.. at least it did when my primary instructor told me that.
Click to expand...

That isn't technically correct but you can go read our 40 page long discussion or whatever it was on that. Instead I will leave with this, I don't know what you crazy pilots were taught, rudder controls altitude!
 
I'll take a stab. When you make that initial throttle reduction on downwind, it sounds to me like you aren't reducing enough. Typically in a 172 when I pass the numbers i reduce the throttle down to about 1500 and then pitch for 80 knots. When you start throwing flaps out there the airplane wants to get down pretty good. Have to make sure to don't fly a pattern to wide or too tight. To wide, and you will need more power to sustain a shallower descent.

OK now for the pitch for airspeed crap that is sure to follow. OP, ALL you need to know at this point is the relationship the throttle and the elevator have in common. If you change one you WILL HAVE to change the other. If you are too low, pitch down, but also reduce power (or if you are two low reduce power, and pitch down to maintain airspeed...which ever way you were taught).

To reiterate, if you change one you have to change the other.
 
TXTBOOK said:
I just passed 18 hours today, and I'm having a little trouble with landings. I'm flying out of WHP but doing pattern work at VNY in a C172M.

I tend to always stay high throughout the approach, never even coming close to touching down on the displaced runway chevrons/arrows. I know I'm not supposed to touch down there, I just mean I'm high. I'm touching down just past the numbers, but I think my approaches are like a slamdunk type. I'm high, so I lower the nose a little, and this gets me down but I gain a little airspeed. The result is that I am actually touching down faster than I want (I think). Then, when I touch down, for some reason, the airplane rolls either right or left. Maybe this is wind, but we never had more than 6kts of a 30 degree off center wind, and for one or two of the landings, wind was calm. Almost every landing today with my instructor ended with "My Flight Controls" and me wondering what the heck made the airplane roll to the left/right just after touchdown. Obviously my instructor and I talk about it and we are working on it together, but I wondered what everyone else thought, too.

On the other hand, my instructor lands smoothly and perfectly every time (he did a couple today to show me what it should look like), and the sight picture during his landings is considerably different to me. To my very untrained eye, I'm convinced he is going to land on the displaced threshold as we cross the airport fence. Of course we never do, but I can never seem to reproduce that sight picture during my own landings. Maybe it's a comfort thing.

Granted, this is only the second or third lesson dedicated to TO/L but I'm getting frusturated. I did 5 landings today, 2 go arounds, and not one of them I am proud of. I suppose it's better that I'm high rather than low, but I'm definitely missing something.

Any ideas, tips, or otherwise words of encouragement?

Thanks for the help,

Matt
Click to expand...

My instructor has never taken control, but has assisted me (while I still had the controls) when I wasn't pulling back enough. I spent my last 5 (really 4 1/2 lesson- one was a 20NM cross country) on landings. What does your instructor say as you are beginning final? Is your instructor telling you how to make corrections or just letting you do what you think? Mine will tell me if I need to adjust something, so that helps.
 
Matt, I have been flying for many years and have many thousands of hours and you know what, some of my landings still suck so relax. Although the fundamental basics should be well understood, I am a firm believer that good landings eventually come more from "feel" than "technique." Energy management is really the goal here and when I was in your position I always tried to mentally project the descent path of the airplane to the end of the runway which worked well for me. When your instructor feels it is appropriate, have him/her pull the power to idle while downwind abeam the numbers and try to put the airplane in the landing zone, on speed, without adding any power. This will provide a great learning experience and hopefully some of the concepts of energy management will be more clear.

You posting here and being willing to listen to others, clearly show you have high standards. I am confident you will become an excellent pilot and will be offering landing advice to others in the very near future. :)
 
Jbroz04 said:
Just remember that throttle controls altitude and pitch controls airspeed in this instance and you will be golden.
Click to expand...

This one time, I was flying with a Navy friend who hadn't had much time in 172's and the like. We taxied onto the runway, and when ready to takeoff I threw the yoke forward and said I was pitching for airspeed. Needless to say, we gained no airspeed, didn't take off, and he didn't laugh. Pitch for airspeed sucked at that point.

I have a cardiologist friend who took 40+ hours to solo (=smart, aside from flying). At 14 hours, you've got time...
 
Sounds like you're having a very similar problem I started out with, and I'll catch myself doing it every now and then today.

I think you're problem is that you're focusing on the wrong place on the runway. Yes, focus on a spot to aim for (ie, the numbers, touchdown markers, etc.) on the approach and fly the approach the way your instructor taught you. BUT, when you get OVER the threshold and as soon as you reduce your power, look up at the far end of the runway and keep your focus there all the way until you slow down enough to turn off the runway.

By doing this, you will land BEYOND the start of the threshold. Just keep doing what you been doing-add downward pressure if you think you're slow and add a little more back pressure if you think you're fast. Also, by focusing on the far end, you'll be better able to judge how much crosswind correction so that you'll track centerline all the way through your rollout.


RECAP-when you reduce power on short final, look up and focus on the end of the runway.

PS> You'll get it-just keep working hard!
 
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