See and avoid

Goodspeed

Goodspeed

Well-Known Member
Come on people, just because we are at an airport with a control tower doesn't relieve you from watching for traffic. Twice now in a few days it's been close calls in the pattern after pilots not listening to the controllers and most important, LOOK OUTSIDE!

First time goes like this.
(after not being able to find the airport)Tower: "Cirrus, continue downwind follow the second Cessna on final."
"Cirrus uuum ok"
Now I'm in the second Cessna on final and I'm thinking, of course he's going to see the first Cessna and turn right in front of us, sure enough a few seconds later he does just that. Me to the student "My controls" and I break off while the tower informs the cirrus that he was suppose to follow the second Cessna.

Then today,
Me:"Tower, Cessna at XX, Mike, landing."
"Cessna join right downwind for XX"
a few seconds later "Tower, Mooney at XX, Mike, landing." (a few miles behind me)
So he's also instructed to join on the downwind behind me. I can see him getting closer and closer on the TIS. Again I'm thinking, is this guy is going to run right into the back of me, but even if he can't see me yet, didn't he just hear me on the radio and announce my position. Right when we join downwind he calls tower, "Umm tower there is a Cessna over here.", So now I'm playing what's the other guy going to do, again. Is he going to slow down, s-turns for spacing, of course not, he's going to pass me about 50 feet below, it would have been the same altitude except I told my student to climb. Then he goes straight from downwind to final, cutting off a Hawker turning base to final.

I always teach my students to listen to what the controllers are telling others and anticipate what the other pilot might do and keep your eyes open when near any airport, but I just don't get how some people can fly around with their heads, you know where.

Sorry, had to rant.
 
We run into this almost on a daily basis at my flight school. The uncontrolled airports are even worse.
 
Some months ago i was on final landing runway 23 behind a Cessna. Cessna calls clear of 23, only to a couple seconds later transmit to me there was an aircraft that appeared to be departing runway 5. No radio calls or nothing from the guy departing runway 5. I continue cautiously, a second radio call from the Cessna advising me he has lifted off. He's in sight, i deviate right of runway and go around. Much appreciation to Cessna for advising, Thanks!

In fact i got it on video. The description on the right side of the video has more detail.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NqTOKmgMfxU&feature=channel_page

Fly Safe
 
When I was working on my instrument rating a few years ago we shooting a VOR-A into bucyrus and told no traffic in the vicinty. My instructor had me lift my hood at MDA and said he didnt see anyone in the pattern and I didnt see anyone either. The whole time I had been annoucing our postion on the airport freq. We flew a complete pattern and just as I landed I see another aircraft touchdown on the other end of the runway. Sure enough my instructor took the controls and completed a go around. The other pilot never said a word till after he saw us going around and than apologized saying oh I didnt see you there. Stuff like that makes me mad only because its so easy to just annouce and LISTEN for other traffic that alittle thing like that could get someone killed.
 
I've almost been creamed twice in the last six weeks due to people either not having or not using their radios. The spray plane pilots around here have never had radios. After this last near-miss, I asked if they would at least buy a cheap hand held scanner and set it to the CTAF. Nope.
 
Remember, there's no requirement to have a radio in your airplane at an uncontrolled so you are just as at fault as the guy who didn't see you because you didn't see him either. My #1 biggest pet peeve is for instrument students and instrument instructors who call out only the approach they are on and the fixes they are over on a VFR day at an uncontrolled field. My student pilots out there solo, and most VFR guys who don't have an instrument ticket have absolutely NO IDEA WHERE YOU ARE when you say stuff like "over the marker" or STREP intersection inbound. Use mileage and direction from airport.
 
Goldmember said:
My #1 biggest pet peeve is for instrument students and instrument instructors who call out only the approach they are on and the fixes they are over on a VFR day at an uncontrolled field. My student pilots out there solo, and most VFR guys who don't have an instrument ticket have absolutely NO IDEA WHERE YOU ARE when you say stuff like "over the marker" or STREP intersection inbound. Use mileage and direction from airport.
Click to expand...

Roger that!
 
A private pilot, or a student pilot going for his private ticket, should at least understand that marker beacons are on "final". But yeah on the intersections.
 
I always just give direction, distance, altitude and intentions when calling an airport while on approach because even most instrument pilots who aren't familiar with the area wont know where a certain fix is.
 
Goodspeed said:
Come on people, just because we are at an airport with a control tower doesn't relieve you from watching for traffic. Twice now in a few days it's been close calls in the pattern after pilots not listening to the controllers and most important, LOOK OUTSIDE!

First time goes like this.
(after not being able to find the airport)Tower: "Cirrus, continue downwind follow the second Cessna on final."
"Cirrus uuum ok"
Now I'm in the second Cessna on final and I'm thinking, of course he's going to see the first Cessna and turn right in front of us, sure enough a few seconds later he does just that. Me to the student "My controls" and I break off while the tower informs the cirrus that he was suppose to follow the second Cessna.

Then today,
Me:"Tower, Cessna at XX, Mike, landing."
"Cessna join right downwind for XX"
a few seconds later "Tower, Mooney at XX, Mike, landing." (a few miles behind me)
So he's also instructed to join on the downwind behind me. I can see him getting closer and closer on the TIS. Again I'm thinking, is this guy is going to run right into the back of me, but even if he can't see me yet, didn't he just hear me on the radio and announce my position. Right when we join downwind he calls tower, "Umm tower there is a Cessna over here.", So now I'm playing what's the other guy going to do, again. Is he going to slow down, s-turns for spacing, of course not, he's going to pass me about 50 feet below, it would have been the same altitude except I told my student to climb. Then he goes straight from downwind to final, cutting off a Hawker turning base to final.

I always teach my students to listen to what the controllers are telling others and anticipate what the other pilot might do and keep your eyes open when near any airport, but I just don't get how some people can fly around with their heads, you know where.

Sorry, had to rant.
Click to expand...

FRG? Yesterday I was broken off of an approach, turned 180° to the right fly 4 miles, 180° to the left fly 4 miles, 180° to the right again and 4 miles later join a right base. The controller was dealing with some guy who flew right into the pattern and called for an instruction right over the field. Don't even think he wrote the guy a nastygram.
 
Goodspeed said:
Yes. They had one of the new controllers working at the time but it was definitely not the controllers fault. Lately it seems to have gotten worse, people seem to fly whatever traffic pattern they feel like.
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They have what seems like an infinite amount of patience to deal with some of the people around here. Really great bunch, except for the one lady that doesn't know what she's doing.
 
It seems to be the weekend warriors who are the worst offenders. I lost count how many times I have been mid field down wind and watched somebodies landing gear through the roof window going by too close for comfort. No radio calls or nothing. Or the infamous any traffic in the pattern please advise then do not listen when you announce you position.
Shane
 
Cal Varnson said:
I've almost been creamed twice in the last six weeks due to people either not having or not using their radios. The spray plane pilots around here have never had radios. After this last near-miss, I asked if they would at least buy a cheap hand held scanner and set it to the CTAF. Nope.
Click to expand...

Zardoz is Awesome.
 
Cal Varnson said:
I've almost been creamed twice in the last six weeks due to people either not having or not using their radios. The spray plane pilots around here have never had radios. After this last near-miss, I asked if they would at least buy a cheap hand held scanner and set it to the CTAF. Nope.
Click to expand...

A few years ago, a pair of cropdusters had me so pissed to the point I reported them. They were being TOTALLY RECKLESS. No radios, VFR in IMC, improperly flying the traffic pattern, blocking the only exit from the active runway while loading chemicals, and a plethora of other dangerous operating practices. Bottom line--keep your eyes open!
 
I am a student pilot and have no clue nor have been taught what "outer markers" are. The other day I was out at Trenton Mercer and a plane was shooting a SIM IFR approach and he announced when he was at the outer markers. I was on the down wind leg and the controller asked if I had him in sight. I nervously said "ahh Sir I have no clue where the outer markers are". The controller came back on and said to the plane shooting the approach that there was a student pilot in the pattern and to maintain break off the approach or something to that matter. Needless to say I felt pretty stupid.

I do 90% of my flying at an uncontrolled airport and with the little flight time that I have I have been very surprised to see how many pilots will just fly into the pattern with out announcing their location. Considering the close proximity of the Hudson collision to my ap I am surprised more people are not heads up.
 
CBpilot said:
I am a student pilot and have no clue nor have been taught what "outer markers" are. The other day I was out at Trenton Mercer and a plane was shooting a SIM IFR approach and he announced when he was at the outer markers. I was on the down wind leg and the controller asked if I had him in sight. I nervously said "ahh Sir I have no clue where the outer markers are". The controller came back on and said to the plane shooting the approach that there was a student pilot in the pattern and to maintain break off the approach or something to that matter. Needless to say I felt pretty stupid.

I do 90% of my flying at an uncontrolled airport and with the little flight time that I have I have been very surprised to see how many pilots will just fly into the pattern with out announcing their location. Considering the close proximity of the Hudson collision to my ap I am surprised more people are not heads up.
Click to expand...

You're not expected to know what an outer marker is or where it is as a student pilot. The plane on the approach should've made a distance-out call (ie- 5 mile final) in order to account for the fact that there may be non-instrument pilots in the pattern. Thats just good airmanship.
 
MikeD said:
You're not expected to know what an outer marker is or where it is as a student pilot. The plane on the approach should've made a distance-out call (ie- 5 mile final) in order to account for the fact that there may be non-instrument pilots in the pattern. Thats just good airmanship.
Click to expand...

Right after I got my PPL, I got checked out at the aero club and was flying into a military field. When I called the tower, they told me to "report the final approach fix", so which I replied, "what is a FAF?". Don't worry, you don't need to know until you start flying IFR. Good luck!
 
germb747 said:
Right after I got my PPL, I got checked out at the aero club and was flying into a military field. When I called the tower, they told me to "report the final approach fix", so which I replied, "what is a FAF?". Don't worry, you don't need to know until you start flying IFR. Good luck!
Click to expand...

If you didn't know what a final approach fix was, how did you know to reply back as an FAF?

:D
 
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