Let's do some math

ppragman

ppragman

No pasa nada.
The need some help with pay thread got me thinking, so I busted out the calculator and got to work. Please check my numbers if you like.

Let's do some math.

Let's look at the most Junior non-street captain Colgan Saab Captain, flying with the most Junior FO flying 20 days per month on minimum guarantee. That's $78.75 per day at 20days a month for the FO, and $157.50 per day for the captain. Let's say they both make $50/day in per diem. That's $128.75 for the FO, and $207.50 for the Captain. Ouch.

Let's look at the most Junior captain at ASA (hired Aug 2005) let's say he's on 4th year pay, that's $57,600 on the guarantee. If I did my math correctly, that's 234 days of work per year roughly. That's $246.15 per day, plus per diem. APC says perdiem is $1.60 per hour. Let's just round it up to $50/day. That's $296.15. I do an occasional $300 day in the cherokee 6, and average about $200/day. That's kinda sad when you think about it.

Now let's turn our attention to Legacy pay rates. Since most Legacy pay scales on APC scare and confuse me (especially DeltaWestBorg's) I squinted my eyes and randomly selected American for payscales. Let's take a peek at second year pay for the most junior second yearer (as first year pay isn't exactly indicative of Legacy pay). Let's say our pilot in question is a line holding second year FO. She's getting $57,600 per APC (the same as the most Junior Acey captain if you recal). Let's say all of her flights are domestic, and she's pulling in $1.80/hr for per diem. Let's say, that just as all the other crewmembers she's flying 20days per month. That works out to the same roughly $296-ish per day.

Let's look at legacy captain pay. According to APC, the freshest Legacy captain works at Continental, and was hired in Sept of 2005. He/She flies the 737 at EWR. I'm assuming (and this is a bigone) that he makes "SN Captain pay," which at coming up on 4th year wages is $139 a flight hour. Let's also assume that he holds a line and gets the minimum guarantee 72hrs per month. Let's also assume that he only works the magic 234 days per year, and gets the $50/day in per diem. That's $563.23 per day. Or roughly 2.71 colgan captains. Hmmmmmm.... I'm assuming that he or she flies the 737-300, which is in the 128 pax configuration (per wikipedia). 2.71 Colgan flights gives you 92.14 passenger seats. Really, to match the 737, the saab has to make 4 flights (3.76) but can saturate the day with availability (as it is doubtful that all 128 pax will want to go at once). That means that if you have 3 Slaabs, you can offer the service of 3 737s per day and pay the crew less.

Discuss.
 
ppragman said:
That means that if you have 3 Slaabs, you can offer the service of 3 737s per day and pay the crew less.
Click to expand...

Ding Ding Ding. That is why the scope of the regionals has gone up exponentially in the last decade.

MIT STUDY

The rapid emergence of
regional jets can be seen in Figure 1, which
shows FAA registration data plotted between the
third quarter of 1993 and the third quarter of
2002, for some of the regional jets commonly
flown in the United States. The figure shows
that the growth in regional jets is exponential,
with CRJ2 and E145 registration data increasing
the fastest.
Click to expand...
 
ppragman said:
The need some help with pay thread got me thinking, so I busted out the calculator and got to work. Please check my numbers if you like.

Let's do some math.

Let's look at the most Junior non-street captain Colgan Saab Captain, flying with the most Junior FO flying 20 days per month on minimum guarantee. That's $78.75 per day at 20days a month for the FO, and $157.50 per day for the captain. Let's say they both make $50/day in per diem. That's $128.75 for the FO, and $207.50 for the Captain. Ouch.

Let's look at the most Junior captain at ASA (hired Aug 2005) let's say he's on 4th year pay, that's $57,600 on the guarantee. If I did my math correctly, that's 234 days of work per year roughly. That's $246.15 per day, plus per diem. APC says perdiem is $1.60 per hour. Let's just round it up to $50/day. That's $296.15. I do an occasional $300 day in the cherokee 6, and average about $200/day. That's kinda sad when you think about it.

Now let's turn our attention to Legacy pay rates. Since most Legacy pay scales on APC scare and confuse me (especially DeltaWestBorg's) I squinted my eyes and randomly selected American for payscales. Let's take a peek at second year pay for the most junior second yearer (as first year pay isn't exactly indicative of Legacy pay). Let's say our pilot in question is a line holding second year FO. She's getting $57,600 per APC (the same as the most Junior Acey captain if you recal). Let's say all of her flights are domestic, and she's pulling in $1.80/hr for per diem. Let's say, that just as all the other crewmembers she's flying 20days per month. That works out to the same roughly $296-ish per day.

Let's look at legacy captain pay. According to APC, the freshest Legacy captain works at Continental, and was hired in Sept of 2005. He/She flies the 737 at EWR. I'm assuming (and this is a bigone) that he makes "SN Captain pay," which at coming up on 4th year wages is $139 a flight hour. Let's also assume that he holds a line and gets the minimum guarantee 72hrs per month. Let's also assume that he only works the magic 234 days per year, and gets the $50/day in per diem. That's $563.23 per day. Or roughly 2.71 colgan captains. Hmmmmmm.... I'm assuming that he or she flies the 737-300, which is in the 128 pax configuration (per wikipedia). 2.71 Colgan flights gives you 92.14 passenger seats. Really, to match the 737, the saab has to make 4 flights (3.76) but can saturate the day with availability (as it is doubtful that all 128 pax will want to go at once). That means that if you have 3 Slaabs, you can offer the service of 3 737s per day and pay the crew less.

Discuss.
Click to expand...


In my previous job I had a $40,000 dollar week... and contracted out at 300/day plus hotel. Whats the point? Does it matter that I made more in 1 month there, than I did in my first year and a half at Colgan?

Junior 737 in EWR is no where close to holding a line, and most saab guys average 14-15 days off until recent. Last year my W2 was 64,820 ish... that was 50% 1900, 50%Q400. At 234 days, thats close to 270 a day. I forget what per diem was, but i don't count that as pay, because it is not.

121 pay is hard to gauge Often those who work the least, make the most etc. Simply running max gar. month often doesn't really tell the whole story.

Last November I credited in excess of 160 hours... but only flew 68. Am I fairly compensated? no. Do i feel the need to brag about my big days? not really. I could talk about the time I received min day pay, as well as draft pay for a commute that went 1 minute into my day off... resulting in 400 dollars of pay for 1 minute of work, but it's really not that important.

If you are so happy flying 135 in AK, why do you have such a vested interest in 121 operations? It's not like I hop into the freight dog forums and try to tell them I've got it all figured out. I don't even bother talking about other airlines, as it's not really my place to comment, and i don't live/work in their shoes so I really don't know whats going on.
 
Murdoughnut said:
Bigger jets are safer than smaller ones.
Click to expand...

I was jumpseating home yesterday and of course DL oversold the flight by a bunch. So while I was heading down the jetway I got a lecture from a passenger on how I need to fly a bigger plane into Little Rock.

I told him "I'd gladly fly something bigger for more than the $18,000 I made last year, but that's a bit above my pay grade"

I support neutering the stupid

And on topic, I figured out a while ago that on a full flight each person pays me $0.54 an hour.
 
TUCKnTRUCK said:
In my previous job I had a $40,000 dollar week... and contracted out at 300/day plus hotel. Whats the point? Does it matter that I made more in 1 month there, than I did in my first year and a half at Colgan?

Junior 737 in EWR is no where close to holding a line, and most saab guys average 14-15 days off until recent. Last year my W2 was 64,820 ish... that was 50% 1900, 50%Q400. At 234 days, thats close to 270 a day. I forget what per diem was, but i don't count that as pay, because it is not.

121 pay is hard to gauge Often those who work the least, make the most etc. Simply running max gar. month often doesn't really tell the whole story?

Last November I credited in excess of 160 hours... but only flew 68. Am I fairly compensated? no. Do i feel the need to brag about my big days? not really. I could talk about the time I received min day pay, as well as draft pay for a commute that went 1 minute into my day off... resulting in 400 dollars of pay for 1 minute of work, but it's really not that important.

If you are so happy flying 135 in AK, why do you have such a vested interest in 121 operations? It's not like I hop into the freight dog forums and try to tell them I've got it all figured out. I don't even bother talking about other airlines, as it's not really my place to comment, and i don't live/work in their shoes so I really don't know whats going on.
Click to expand...

I'm not trying to brag, nor am I trying to attack anyone, I'm trying to elucidate a point. You guys aren't making as much as you should. Why do I say anything at all? What's good for you may be good for me. If wages go up at Colgan and in the 121/regional world, it will be more difficult to find people who want to do the kind of work I do. That means more money for us. Plus, I'd like to have the option to one day go from where I go to an airline without having to take a raping paycut. I underestimated everything. If the APC calc is to be believed then the EWR captain should make more on reserve at COA than holding a line. Oh, and I don't have it figured out. If I had everything figured out, I wouldn't bother to post this in the first place.

The primary purpose of this remains, is the money adequate compensation for services rendered.
 
surreal1221 said:
135 in Alaska is > *

Didn't you know?
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135 in Ak is the * because I still have a job. That may not be fair, but I'm still pulling in a paycheck right now, and it is a better one than many regional FOs. This should not be the case. Either I make too much money, or they don't make enough. I'm betting on not enough, as I feel I'm pretty fairly compensated. Let's talk numbers, and let's say, "why is that?" when we look at regional pay.
 
ppragman said:
135 in Ak is the * because I still have a job. That may not be fair, but I'm still pulling in a paycheck right now, and it is a better one than many regional FOs. This should not be the case. Either I make too much money, or they don't make enough. I'm betting on not enough, as I feel I'm pretty fairly compensated. Let's talk numbers, and let's say, "why is that?" when we look at regional pay.
Click to expand...
"Being a foot doctor is the best kind of doctor!"

"NO! Being an eye doctor is the best kind of doctor!"

'NO NO! Foot doctor is better!!!"

"NO NO NO! Eye doctor is better!!!!"

Congrats on elevating the topic of what kind of flying different people like to...well the same place its always been....the realm of idiocy.

And thanks for the little jab about how you still have a job. I'll copy/paste it in your thread when you get laid off. It'll be fun since you are apparently naive enough to think your company is invincible. Can I get a picture of your wife crying when it happens too? :cool:
 
ppragman said:
The primary purpose of this remains, is the money adequate compensation for services rendered.
Click to expand...

No and I haven't found anyone on here who has disagreed with you on that point. Pay needs to go up across the board especially at the lower end of regional seniority lists. A senior captain at a regional can easily break 100K a year to fly 50 people around. That isn't nearly as unfair as the Junior FO side of the scales. Yet you make it sound like all you ever are is a first year FO and that it never gets any better.

Also flying for a regional puts you in a position to advance your career into a much higher paying position at a Legacy, Major, or anything that requires a bunch of turbine PIC. You can fly your 207 around all day and bitch about regional FO pay rates but I will be making boatloads more cash over my career if I let it progress through the regionals and onto one of the Legacys. I don't think anyone at a regional took the job because they thought the pay was great from the get go. It was more of a means to an end for most of us when the majors were hiring like crazy. We are all starting to realize that this may not be the case anymore and that type of attitude won't fly anymore, but pay will get better in due time. Granted furloughs are a part of the business and this could just as easily happen to you up there in Alaska if the situation were a bit different.

It sounds more and more like you are just trying to justify your decision to go fly freight in Alaska.
 
Clocks said:
"Being a foot doctor is the best kind of doctor!"

"NO! Being an eye doctor is the best kind of doctor!"

'NO NO! Foot doctor is better!!!"

"NO NO NO! Eye doctor is better!!!!"

Congrats on elevating the topic of what kind of flying different people like to...well the same place its always been....the realm of idiocy.

And thanks for the little jab about how you still have a job. I'll copy/paste it in your thread when you get laid off. It'll be fun since you are apparently naive enough to think your company is invincible. Can I get a picture of your wife crying when it happens too? :cool:
Click to expand...

Sure, I'll send it to you as soon as we go under.

I don't know how long my company will last, nor is that the overriding purpose of that. At least I have enough money saved up that I can do something about it if they go under. At 25,000/year you can't.
 
SoCalAprch said:
It sounds more and more like you are just trying to justify your decision to go fly freight in Alaska.
Click to expand...



Yes, and you're trying to justify your decision to fly for a regional. Everyone has something to justify, because nobody really thinks they're getting treated fairly.

How about we all stop being so defensive and realize we're all in this together. 135/121/91/3001 its all the same. Whats good for the goose is good for the gander and all that B.S.

Sure we all may have "philosophical" differences, and i think that's really the reason some of us choose one part of flying over the other, but we all put up with the same crap.

So quit bitchin and :beer:
 
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