First plane to purchase?
- Thread starter ozone
- Start date
BillErvin
Peddling as fast as I can
I'll address a little misinformation
1. A lot of A&Ps will work on homebuilts, ask around.
2. As the owner, Non-builder of a homebuilt you can do all the work on them, except the yearly condition inspection.
Aggie, paragraphs man paragraphs.
Your mistake is buying a rare airplane, the harder the part is to find the more expensive it will be
Do the oil change yourself and you'll only pay for the oil. If you don't know how, learn... and read FAR part 43 appendix A, under 42.1 Sec A (a) 4 (c), you'd be surprised at what you can do. The other option is find a partner that's an A&P
My 150 cost about 300 dollars last year maintenance wise, because we do owner assisted annuals. Just got this years insurance quote 475 dollars.
Me want one
To the OP, the Velocity is not a good first plane unless you've got lots of real good training prior to flying them. Check Insurance prices before you get into it, if you don't have a lot of experience it'll cost you.
Also they tend to be runway hogs, at least the one I flew was, takeoffs are fast, landings are fast, and they use lots of runway to get flying or stopped. Beautiful airplanes though
I agree that building your own airplane is the best of all worlds for most of us. Look into Vans Aircraft RV series. Best bang for the buck by far. I'm a bit bias though, I've built and flown an RV6 and am now building an RV9
1. A lot of A&Ps will work on homebuilts, ask around.
2. As the owner, Non-builder of a homebuilt you can do all the work on them, except the yearly condition inspection.
Aggie, paragraphs man paragraphs.
Your mistake is buying a rare airplane, the harder the part is to find the more expensive it will be
Do the oil change yourself and you'll only pay for the oil. If you don't know how, learn... and read FAR part 43 appendix A, under 42.1 Sec A (a) 4 (c), you'd be surprised at what you can do. The other option is find a partner that's an A&P
My 150 cost about 300 dollars last year maintenance wise, because we do owner assisted annuals. Just got this years insurance quote 475 dollars.
Me want one
To the OP, the Velocity is not a good first plane unless you've got lots of real good training prior to flying them. Check Insurance prices before you get into it, if you don't have a lot of experience it'll cost you.
Also they tend to be runway hogs, at least the one I flew was, takeoffs are fast, landings are fast, and they use lots of runway to get flying or stopped. Beautiful airplanes though
I agree that building your own airplane is the best of all worlds for most of us. Look into Vans Aircraft RV series. Best bang for the buck by far. I'm a bit bias though, I've built and flown an RV6 and am now building an RV9
BillErvin
Peddling as fast as I can
dough,
Three words man, Owner assisted Annual and A&P supervised maintenance. If your A&P don't want to let you help, find another one. You'll be "one with your plane" when you do the work.
Murdoughnut
Well sized member
dough,
Three words man, Owner assisted Annual and A&P supervised maintenance. If your A&P don't want to let you help, find another one. You'll be "one with your plane" when you do the work.
Haha, no kidding. Our group is kind of married to the guy that does it - and he does high quality work. I just checked the invoice and it looks like they charge us $75 per hour for MX. Not sure how that compares to other places.
I think part of it too is that this guys finds EVERYTHING even remotely out of place - so we end up fixing a lot of small stuff.
BillErvin
Peddling as fast as I can
Boy, that marriage would end in a hurry in my neighborhood
Maybe you need to sit down with your group and discuss some options with your A&P. The $75 per ain't that bad, but there are ways of minimizing the amount of hours he spends actually working on it. Like pulling & replacing inspection panels, pulling wheels, greasing wheel bearings and changing old tires, taking out the interior for inspection and putting it back in. Little things, but they take a lot of time to do. A Big Plus, you'll learn more about your airplane.
A good A&P should be interested in helping you learn more about your plane, then you can be more helpful to him when a gremlin get in the airplane and he can't figure out what it is.
But not just any Piper Apache right?Two words--Piper Apache! Nuf said!!
Murdoughnut
Well sized member
Boy, that marriage would end in a hurry in my neighborhood
The $75 per ain't that bad, but there are ways of minimizing the amount of hours he spends actually working on it. Like pulling & replacing inspection panels, pulling wheels, greasing wheel bearings and changing old tires, taking out the interior for inspection and putting it back in. Little things, but they take a lot of time to do. A Big Plus, you'll learn more about your airplane.
A good A&P should be interested in helping you learn more about your plane, then you can be more helpful to him when a gremlin get in the airplane and he can't figure out what it is.
That's some good advice - I'm definitely going to mention it to them!
But not just any Piper Apache right?
I have got just the deal for him!
ozone
Well-Known Member
Haha....All I have right now is ASEL VFR, so I think an apache would be a wee be too much.
I really like the idea of the beech 23-24 musketeer. I ahd not considered that type of plane before, do all beechcraft airplanes share the same roominess and so on? Also, anyone know of someone in the Boston Area who would be willing to show me a Beech?
I joined theapa.com and there are some folks in my situation who are looking for partnerships...so who knows perhaps in the next 6-12 months I can release a nice little brag post about a new plane....
Please keep the ideas/critiques coming people!
WacoFan
Bigly
Why would anyone want to sell an Apache???
Unless...you are trading up to a Beech 18, or perhaps a Lockheed 12A...or, the pinnacle of light twins...a Lodestar!
Hey everyone - T-carts getting a Lodestar!!!
jrh
Well-Known Member
This thread reminds me of why I don't like to ask for advice on internet forums very often...everybody has an opinion, most are vastly different from the next guy's, and if I were Ozone I'd be left more confused than when I started.
To address some concepts from above without quoting specific posters...
I see terms like "ridiculously expensive," "cheap" and everything in between thrown around. I don't understand why people can't seem to understand how subjective these terms are. Don't put your own financial perspective on Ozone. He still hasn't said what he considers affordable. As I mentioned in my first post, I own a $20k plane. I know a guy with a $40k first plane. Another guy has a $500k first plane. And guess what? We can all afford them and we're all happy with them! The key is getting a plane that works for *you* in *your* personal situation.
Along a similar line of thinking, be careful about recommending homebuilts/kitbuilts/owner assisted annuals/owner performed maintenance. What *you* might consider an easy way to save money might be a big waste of time and a PITA for Ozone. Or it might be right up his alley. We don't know what kind of a guy he is.
Frankly, I'm a pretty good pilot and a pretty lousy mechanic. I do my job and let the mechanics do theirs. If it's completely easy, brainless work I'll do it myself (sanding off corrosion from sheet metal, for instance), but if there is any amount of expertise involved, I'm happy to pay my shop $70/hour to do it. My time and stress is worth something. I know I'm paying more than I might have to, but I budget for it, plan for it, and am completely satisfied. Ozone shouldn't feel like he's somehow an inferior aircraft owner if he isn't out at his hangar every weekend trying to get something done when he'd rather be hanging out with his family. Airplanes are meant to be enjoyed, not stressed over.
Thanks for the details!
Without knowing your exact budget, here's what I think might work well for you: A nice, clean, IFR-certified Cherokee Warrior of some kind (-151, -161, or -181).
Why do I say this? It actually has very little to do with any particular performance specs or dollar values. I recommend it because I think you'll enjoy it. It's an EASY way to have fun with flying. You already know how they handle and apparently you like them. It sounds like it can carry your family fine, especially for shorter trips like you plan to take, yet longer trips are doable as well. It's easy to find maintenance support for them and it's easy to insure them. I think if you get one you're more likely to have a good first experience with ownership than if you got something more exotic. The only reason I specified an IFR-certification is so you have the option to get your instrument rating in it if you want to in the future.
Go buy a Warrior, fly it around for a couple years, see what you think of the whole ownership thing. By the time your wife gets comfortable flying with you and your daughter gets bigger you'll have enough experience, both as a pilot and an owner, to pick out something bigger/faster/more exotic that fits the profile of your flying.
That's my opinion. Worth about as much as every other "expert" here
To address some concepts from above without quoting specific posters...
I see terms like "ridiculously expensive," "cheap" and everything in between thrown around. I don't understand why people can't seem to understand how subjective these terms are. Don't put your own financial perspective on Ozone. He still hasn't said what he considers affordable. As I mentioned in my first post, I own a $20k plane. I know a guy with a $40k first plane. Another guy has a $500k first plane. And guess what? We can all afford them and we're all happy with them! The key is getting a plane that works for *you* in *your* personal situation.
Along a similar line of thinking, be careful about recommending homebuilts/kitbuilts/owner assisted annuals/owner performed maintenance. What *you* might consider an easy way to save money might be a big waste of time and a PITA for Ozone. Or it might be right up his alley. We don't know what kind of a guy he is.
Frankly, I'm a pretty good pilot and a pretty lousy mechanic. I do my job and let the mechanics do theirs. If it's completely easy, brainless work I'll do it myself (sanding off corrosion from sheet metal, for instance), but if there is any amount of expertise involved, I'm happy to pay my shop $70/hour to do it. My time and stress is worth something. I know I'm paying more than I might have to, but I budget for it, plan for it, and am completely satisfied. Ozone shouldn't feel like he's somehow an inferior aircraft owner if he isn't out at his hangar every weekend trying to get something done when he'd rather be hanging out with his family. Airplanes are meant to be enjoyed, not stressed over.
Thanks for the details!
Without knowing your exact budget, here's what I think might work well for you: A nice, clean, IFR-certified Cherokee Warrior of some kind (-151, -161, or -181).
Why do I say this? It actually has very little to do with any particular performance specs or dollar values. I recommend it because I think you'll enjoy it. It's an EASY way to have fun with flying. You already know how they handle and apparently you like them. It sounds like it can carry your family fine, especially for shorter trips like you plan to take, yet longer trips are doable as well. It's easy to find maintenance support for them and it's easy to insure them. I think if you get one you're more likely to have a good first experience with ownership than if you got something more exotic. The only reason I specified an IFR-certification is so you have the option to get your instrument rating in it if you want to in the future.
Go buy a Warrior, fly it around for a couple years, see what you think of the whole ownership thing. By the time your wife gets comfortable flying with you and your daughter gets bigger you'll have enough experience, both as a pilot and an owner, to pick out something bigger/faster/more exotic that fits the profile of your flying.
That's my opinion. Worth about as much as every other "expert" here
jrh
Well-Known Member
I'm not a big fan of partnerships, at least for a first aircraft, simply because I think it adds another level of complexity to an already complicated situation.
The only time when I'd be a big supporter of it would be if both (or all) parties could easily support the plane on their own, financially speaking. That way nobody is truly committed. If any tensions arise, one party could sell out to the other and nobody would mind.
Aircraft partners have to see almost perfectly eye to eye about how often the plane will be flown, how it will be maintained, etc. It's hard to find a match from a random meeting on the internet, at an airport, etc.
Now, if both parties have owned aircraft before and know and trust each other on a personal level before entering a partnership, that's more doable. But again, it helps to have played the "aircraft ownership game" on one's own before getting to this level with another person. Just my opinion.
WacoFan
Bigly
This thread reminds me of why I don't like to ask for advice on internet forums very often...everybody has an opinion, most are vastly different from the next guy's, and if I were Ozone I'd be left more confused than when I started.
To address some concepts from above without quoting specific posters...
I see terms like "ridiculously expensive," "cheap" and everything in between thrown around. I don't understand why people can't seem to understand how subjective these terms are. Don't put your own financial perspective on Ozone. He still hasn't said what he considers affordable. As I mentioned in my first post, I own a $20k plane. I know a guy with a $40k first plane. Another guy has a $500k first plane. And guess what? We can all afford them and we're all happy with them! The key is getting a plane that works for *you* in *your* personal situation.
Along a similar line of thinking, be careful about recommending homebuilts/kitbuilts/owner assisted annuals/owner performed maintenance. What *you* might consider an easy way to save money might be a big waste of time and a PITA for Ozone. Or it might be right up his alley. We don't know what kind of a guy he is.
Frankly, I'm a pretty good pilot and a pretty lousy mechanic. I do my job and let the mechanics do theirs. If it's completely easy, brainless work I'll do it myself (sanding off corrosion from sheet metal, for instance), but if there is any amount of expertise involved, I'm happy to pay my shop $70/hour to do it. My time and stress is worth something. I know I'm paying more than I might have to, but I budget for it, plan for it, and am completely satisfied. Ozone shouldn't feel like he's somehow an inferior aircraft owner if he isn't out at his hangar every weekend trying to get something done when he'd rather be hanging out with his family. Airplanes are meant to be enjoyed, not stressed over.
Thanks for the details!
Without knowing your exact budget, here's what I think might work well for you: A nice, clean, IFR-certified Cherokee Warrior of some kind (-151, -161, or -181).
Why do I say this? It actually has very little to do with any particular performance specs or dollar values. I recommend it because I think you'll enjoy it. It's an EASY way to have fun with flying. You already know how they handle and apparently you like them. It sounds like it can carry your family fine, especially for shorter trips like you plan to take, yet longer trips are doable as well. It's easy to find maintenance support for them and it's easy to insure them. I think if you get one you're more likely to have a good first experience with ownership than if you got something more exotic. The only reason I specified an IFR-certification is so you have the option to get your instrument rating in it if you want to in the future.
Go buy a Warrior, fly it around for a couple years, see what you think of the whole ownership thing. By the time your wife gets comfortable flying with you and your daughter gets bigger you'll have enough experience, both as a pilot and an owner, to pick out something bigger/faster/more exotic that fits the profile of your flying.
That's my opinion. Worth about as much as every other "expert" here
I agree with much of what you say. That said, my recommendation of that pristine Waco UPF-7 as a first plane was above reproach and likely agreed with by any correct-thinking participant in this thread. So, you should exempt me from the group of people trying to confuse the OP...in my view I was the only one to give really good advice!
motoboy
Well-Known Member
How did you like your Yankee? I've always thought they were cool planes but you dont see them around that often, the price take makes them more attractive.
Joe Gremlin
Well-Known Member
I was going to use the multi-quote feature but I think I'll keep my comments separate just to keep things more focused. The Rutan bros definitely designed a very efficient airplane in the EZ. However the velocity is not that airplane. The Long-EZ is a plane you strap on much more than sit in, the Velocity sports a wide and very comfy cabin. That cabin comfort comes at a price and that price is performance. The velocity types do ok performance-wise, but none of them really set the world on fire in terms of performance/horsepower when compared to other designs as far as I'm concerned and all of them (including the Rutan designs) need gobs of runway due to the lack of flaps. The bottom line is I would definitely consider a homebuilt as a means to get more performance per dollar, but a Velocity would not be on the list for me.
Joe Gremlin
Well-Known Member
Why are you paying someone else to change your oil? Oil changes are on the list of owner tasks and its your butt in the plane, not the mechanics. And truth be told, I'm not an A&P but I've worked in a few shops and in all the shops I worked in, the mechanics didn't do oil changes, the grunts (i.e. me) did. The mechanics just walked over and glanced at the engine for thirty seconds after the grunt said he was done so the job could be signed off. If you think paying all the money is getting a mechanic to actually look at things under the hood during the oil change, you're dead wrong in most cases. Better that you do the job yourself and then bring anything you feel is suspicious to the mechanic's attention IMHO.
Joe Gremlin
Well-Known Member
You're almost correct, but not totally. An A&P is required to sign off on the yearly condition inspection (annual) of a homebuilt. But that doesn't mean the A&P has to do all the work. The owner can do most of the work, the A&P just has to inspect and sign the book. Often this can lead to annual bills of less than $500, even though you didn't build it and can't sign the book for the inspection. The bottom line is homebuilts tend to be cheaper to own than production birds regardless of whether or not you were the one who built it.
esa17
Well-Known Member
Very negatory.
My truck payment at $450/mo is more expensive than either my mooney or my 150.
MX is the big expense.
KSCessnaDriver
Well-Known Member
If you build an experimental bird, AND apply for the repairman's certificate for that specific airframe, you may sign off the yearly condition inspection. That said, if I built a bird, I think I'd still want an A&P to take a gander at it once a year, just to make sure I didn't do something dumb that I missed.
BillErvin
Peddling as fast as I can
That exactly what I meant to say, just didn't come out that way. A bit dazed today, I was out flying around under the hood all morning.
I lot of the folks I know do just that, it's a set of objective eyes, that can see things that you look at everyday and miss.