How would you handle this student?

C

ClearedToTakeoff

Well-Known Member
I got a guy that I'm not sure how to progress with him. He's an ATP, tons of flying experience flew in the airlines but was in the military for the past 7 years and had to step out of the airlines. Now he wants to get back into flying and I have no clue how to devise an action plan for him. We've gone up a few times and done maneuvers. We've done lots of touch and gos and some hoodwork. I walked him through the instrument approach back into the field after we did some BAI. The other day we went up for some VOR Navigation. But I just have to clue where to continue. The man is humble and doesn't want me to cut him loose until HE feels ready. I'd be willing to go out a few more times with him probably, ensure his ground is up to par and sign off the BFR, but he seems to want me there a bit longer.

We devised our goal last lesson: He's going to plan a XC to a location 400nm away that has a 737sim which he's typed in (long time ago). But so we'd fly that trip and then he'd try to get in some 737sim time to see what he forgot there. I told him that's a fantastic goal to strive for.... but what's a good path to get there? I'm at a loss since with his flying experience the mistakes he's making aren't safety related it's more "In GA we do rectangle patterns, not turning 180* from downwind to final." type things. I'm just at a loss. Any help for a new CFI?
 
I think honestly just go up with him and let him make his own mistakes

A pilot with that level of experience will have things come back with stretching his muscles a bit.

Just help him recognize things done wrong and what the correct action should be.

And dont be ashamed to learn a few things from him in the process.
 
If you think he is a competent and able pilot, then tell him you are going to sign off his BFR so now he is legal to fly alone. Tell him you think he is safe. If he doesn't feel the same way, tell him you will be glad to ride along with him and take his money as long as he wishes... that's what you're there for!

I had a student kind of like this once upon a time. He recieved all his training somewhere else through PVT and instrument and had not flown in a while. He had no desire to pursue other ratings, just came to me to get current and rent the plane. I flew with him and told him he was good to go. Even though he was safe and consistant, he still didn't feel comfortable so I ended up flying with him for about 20 hours till he decided he was ready to 'solo' again. It was his decision to error on the side of safety, not mine to take his money.
 
ClearedToTakeoff said:
I'm at a loss since with his flying experience the mistakes he's making aren't safety related it's more "In GA we do rectangle patterns, not turning 180* from downwind to final." type things. I'm just at a loss. Any help for a new CFI?
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What's wrong with a 180 to final? So long as he's not cutting off another aircraft, screwing up spacing between one ahead, is able to check/clear final during the turn, and can make the landing work, what difference does it make? So he doesn't level his wings momentarily, big deal. If it was something causing any of the conflicts above with other traffic in the pattern, then that'd be something different. You already said it wasn't safety related...(if it was, then that'd be different)....it's simply something you yourself haven't encountered or been trained on, that doesn't make it wrong though. Remember, you as a CFI can (should) learn too....
 
MikeD said:
What's wrong with a 180 to final? So long as he's not cutting off another aircraft, screwing up spacing between one ahead, is able to check/clear final during the turn, and can make the landing work, what difference does it make? So he doesn't level his wings momentarily, big deal. If it was something causing any of the conflicts above with other traffic in the pattern, then that'd be something different. You already said it wasn't safety related...(if it was, then that'd be different)....it's simply something you yourself haven't encountered or been trained on, that doesn't make it wrong though. Remember, you as a CFI can (should) learn too....
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Okay, so what's a good way to progress with this guy? That's what I'm here asking for help for. I'm very aware being a new CFI I don't know much. Don't want to get into a debate about small items/techniques right now. I'm more interested in how people may have handled such a person they've encountered. I feel really in the dark with this guy. No lesson plans, nothing prepared, just shows up and we decide something right there on the spot. The man is military to, so he's used to rigid structure I imagine and I am certainly not prepared with him.

So far I like the advice of letting him know I'd be fine signing him off and if he just wants to do random things until he's confident in his mind, then I'd be willing to be there for him. But god do I hate feeling so unprepared for a student :(
 
ClearedToTakeoff said:
Okay, so what's a good way to progress with this guy? That's what I'm here asking for help for. I'm very aware being a new CFI I don't know much. Don't want to get into a debate about small items/techniques right now. I'm more interested in how people may have handled such a person they've encountered. I feel really in the dark with this guy. No lesson plans, nothing prepared, just shows up and we decide something right there on the spot. The man is military to, so he's used to rigid structure I imagine and I am certainly not prepared with him.

So far I like the advice of letting him know I'd be fine signing him off and if he just wants to do random things until he's confident in his mind, then I'd be willing to be there for him. But god do I hate feeling so unprepared for a student :(
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I guess I'm not seeing what the issue is. Is it that you're feeling unprepared to teach anything? You seem to have covered the items necessary for a safe pilot. How is he feeling about where he is? Have you asked what he feels he needs, and maybe go from there? I imagine with his experience, he should know enough to know where he feels he may need work.....even moreso if he's humble as you describe. Those are all good traits.
 
Politely ask hte student to come up with his own plan of action for training, to have him highlight what he thinks are his weak areas. Then sit back and watch.

As a new CFI my suggestion to you is not to underestimate your experience, but keep yuor grabby ass hands off the controls unless you're demonstrating something or saving youreself from mortal peril. That and keep quiet when a student does something which is procedurally different from how you do it, but is perfectly acceptaple to do (ie 180 to final)
 
Don't think of each flight as "I have to teach him something to make his flight a learning experience." He is not a noob who would be lost without your guidance, he is a rusty pro who knows what he needs to do himself. I think he justs wants you along for insurance and also perhaps for companionship (not the gay type though).
 
moxiepilot said:
That and keep quiet when a student does something which is procedurally different from how you do it, but is perfectly acceptaple to do (ie 180 to final)
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I would also make a comment to a student who routinely turned 180 to final. It is SOP in general aviation to have a defined base leg in a normal pattern profile. The 180 downwind to final is more tailored for the aircraft flying a pattern at 130 knots and is too fast to afford a base leg segment. If you don't level the wings on base leg then how are you clearing extended final (low wing) or the runway (high wing)? He could then do what he pleases with my comment if he is a rated pilot.
 
ClearedToTakeoff said:
I got a guy that I'm not sure how to progress with him. He's an ATP, tons of flying experience...
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subpilot said:
I would also make a comment to a student who routinely turned 180 to final. He could then do what he pleases with my comment if he is a rated pilot.
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As stated in previous posts, this ATP is rusty, not a new student pilot. My outlook on pilots who have no flight experience vs a certificated pilot is completely different, but I''m trying to keep my comments directed to the question at hand, not the possibilities of "what if this guy was...?"
 
moxiepilot said:
Politely ask hte student to come up with his own plan of action for training, to have him highlight what he thinks are his weak areas. Then sit back and watch.
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I would add one thing to this, after he tells you what he needs to work on, go home and do some of your own research on each topic. All he has done is basically give you the goals/objectives of the lesson, now you can go home and build the lesson around those goals/objectives.
 
Hammer him with all kinds of emergencies to low minimums standards, then the aircraft systems, airspace operation requirements and FAA regulations...........forget IFR stuff other than emergency manouvers (are you in a twin?), keep it VFR. Those are the best kind of students you can get; don’t forget to learn from him as well, the man is a professional.
 
subpilot said:
I would also make a comment to a student who routinely turned 180 to final. It is SOP in general aviation to have a defined base leg in a normal pattern profile. The 180 downwind to final is more tailored for the aircraft flying a pattern at 130 knots and is too fast to afford a base leg segment. If you don't level the wings on base leg then how are you clearing extended final (low wing) or the runway (high wing)? He could then do what he pleases with my comment if he is a rated pilot.
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So long as he's making a cursory clearing, it doesn't matter if he levels his wing on base leg or not; again as long as he's doing none of the above in previous post, its kosher. Am sure he's well aware of rectangular patterns.
 
It's very rare that I have a very very defined base leg. I turn my base, take a quick glance to the left or right, then continue on in. Most of the time it makes it smoother for the passengers, and keeps your pattern a little tighter. Single engine airplanes prefer it I think.
 
MikeD said:
So long as he's making a cursory clearing, it doesn't matter if he levels his wing on base leg or not; again as long as he's doing none of the above in previous post, its kosher. Am sure he's well aware of rectangular patterns.
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:yeahthat: I personally prefer the 180 shot with idling the engine abeam the landing point. I don't teach it, I teach standardized approaches, but for a safer approach, this keeps me always in glide range. Interestingly enough, it was common practice back in the steam gauge days according to my research.

That or turning base at the end of the field and slipping down before turning onto a 1000' or less final into a landing. Cessna's can't slip though, I know we call it that, but thats not a slip, you get what, another 200-300 FPM pfft. Ask black about the Citabria slip, now that plane can do a real slip, 2000+ FPM descent.
 
shdw said:
I personally prefer the 180 shot with idling the engine abeam the landing point. I don't teach it, I teach standardized approaches, but for a safer approach, this keeps me always in glide range.
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I like this comment. It is a good procedure to follow, but not to demand from the new guys - just as you said. It's how you would fly the J-3 Cub in Alaska and appropriate for your local airport in a 182. It follows all of the AIM recommendations for flying a traffic pattern.

The slipping method does not. Remember, it is better to use about a 1/2 mile final approach. Not everyone looks for traffic slipping in on a base leg abeam the runway numbers before they take the runway for takeoff.
 
lhornaday said:
I like this comment. It is a good procedure to follow, but not to demand from the new guys - just as you said. It's how you would fly the J-3 Cub in Alaska and appropriate for your local airport in a 182. It follows all of the AIM recommendations for flying a traffic pattern.

The slipping method does not. Remember, it is better to use about a 1/2 mile final approach. Not everyone looks for traffic slipping in on a base leg abeam the runway numbers before they take the runway for takeoff.
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Precisely. We're talking techniques here. 180 is fine, rectangle pattern is fine. Now if everyone is flying a rectangle pattern at an airport, and you can maintain distances from planes in front and not cut anyone off, visually clear easily, etc....then the 180 work well within. If any of that can't be done, then fly the rectangular everyone else is. Both are fine techniques that work.
 
Here is what I would do:
1. Find out what kind of flying he wants to do ($100 hamburgers, IFR x-country, whatever)
2. Make a list of what he needs to be able to perform safely to do the kind of flying he wants to do
3. Start with the basics-make sure he can safely take off and land and perform basic maneuvers, while doing ground review of cross country planning, regulations, and such.
4. Do a flight or two where you start on a pre-planned flight, then divert due to weather or malfunction.
5. Cross country representative of what he will be doing on his lonesome.

If he manages those last 2 steps well, tell him to go have fun!
 
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