Were about to lose the twin!! Please help!

Stratopilot

Well-Known Member
Hey guys,

I'm more of a lurker than a regular poster, however, I think that its important enough that I make a posting in the hopes of preventing some really bad news for us. :(

I just learned through the grapevine that the boss is going to take our twin aircraft off leaseback unless it starts flying more ( at least 30 hours a month).

Obviously, this would hurt many people at my school, make us extremely uncompetitive, and do serious career damage to all the CFI's here trying to get to that "next level" whatever that might be

The aircraft is a well equipped, and well maintained PA 39 Twin Commanche and goes for a very reasonable 230 per hour. So, If you live the the Dallas- Ft.Worth area and are interested in building some twin time or get your private or commercial addon please PM me and let me know.
 
I have about 10hrs of training in that Twin Comanche. I've been kind of putzing around trying to do my MEI. However I had to stop to replenish funds and wait out this insane Texas heat. It is a VERY reasonable price for a twin here in the Metroplex. I hope it sticks around!
 
I thought you were independent? Anyways, there are lots of places without twin training. They are hard to keep flying, and even harder to turn a profit doing it. Good luck though.
 
I've always found it curious that instructor rates are higher in a twin. I know it requires additional training on the part of the instructor, but if the time is so valuable to them, you would think they'd be willing to do it for much cheaper - at least to bring the cost down enough that someone might be encouraged to get their multi add on
 
you would think they'd be willing to do it for much cheaper

They will. In fact, some instructors have been willing to pay part of the cost of the airplane. But discounting your rates to get ME students tends to create ill-will among the other instructors, and the student tends to get poor service in return. The instructor is a small part of the student's overall cost, but a large part of a successful training experience; that's the last place the student should pinch pennies.
 
They will. In fact, some instructors have been willing to pay part of the cost of the airplane. But discounting your rates to get ME students tends to create ill-will among the other instructors, and the student tends to get poor service in return. The instructor is a small part of the student's overall cost, but a large part of a successful training experience; that's the last place the student should pinch pennies.

I had a guy who wanted to "cut a deal on ground instruction" for his MEI. I told him that not too much ground was required if he was proficient, and that I would not discount my rate. He ended up going someplace else. No worries here.
 
I've always found it curious that instructor rates are higher in a twin. I know it requires additional training on the part of the instructor, but if the time is so valuable to them, you would think they'd be willing to do it for much cheaper - at least to bring the cost down enough that someone might be encouraged to get their multi add on
If you had ever had a student try to Vmc roll you, or step on the wrong rudder, or fail to bring the pitch down, during an engine failure after takeoff...you would understand why rates are higher in a twin. The only thing that has scared me more have been IMC shenanigans.
 
I had a guy who wanted to "cut a deal on ground instruction" for his MEI. I told him that not too much ground was required if he was proficient, and that I would not discount my rate. He ended up going someplace else. No worries here.

I had a guy offer me "a chance to get a lot of multi time." It sounded like the deal of a lifetime!:sarcasm: I got to buy my own airline ticket, pick up a 310 and give him dual instruction on the way back, without getting paid. I hung up on him.

If you had ever had a student try to Vmc roll you, or step on the wrong rudder, or fail to bring the pitch down, during an engine failure after takeoff...you would understand why rates are higher in a twin. The only thing that has scared me more have been IMC shenanigans.

LOL. Yesterday, I briefed a student on the ground about engine fallilure on takeoff. Briefed it in the runup area, and right before takeoff. As I fail the engine and the airplane veers to the left, I yell "STOP ON THE RUNWAY" and he throws both hands up in the air and yells "I'M NOT DOING ANYTHING!".:rotfl:
 
LOL. Yesterday, I briefed a student on the ground about engine fallilure on takeoff. Briefed it in the runup area, and right before takeoff. As I fail the engine and the airplane veers to the left, I yell "STOP ON THE RUNWAY" and he throws both hands up in the air and yells "I'M NOT DOING ANYTHING!".:rotfl:
I LOL'ed at that. I had that happen SOOOOO many times...
*fail engine*
*veer off to side of runway*
"Rudder AND POWER!!!!!!"
 
dang andy for real? thats sad. I was looking fwd to instructing on it myself.


Seriously, It's nothing official yet. I'm bound and determined to keep it on the line. It's the only twin at Addison thats reasonably affordable to use for multi training. Monarch is the only other place on the field that has twin training. I was in there the other day and they were renting one of thier Duchesses for 350 an hour, my jaw damn near hit the floor!!

I'm considering seriously slashing my fee down to a pittance just so I can keep the thing flying.

First they sell the RG, now they might be gettin rid of the twin. As rewarding as teaching primary students is, I'd like to expand my horizons a bit, and this move is going to seriously limit my student base not to mention put an abrupt halt on my career.
 
I had a guy offer me "a chance to get a lot of multi time." It sounded like the deal of a lifetime!:sarcasm: I got to buy my own airline ticket, pick up a 310 and give him dual instruction on the way back, without getting paid. I hung up on him.

I could imagine a situation where an instructor who isn't getting much dual multi time would see this as a huge opportunity - at least in lieu of paying for multi-time. But I commend you sticking to your values.
 
Seriously, It's nothing official yet. I'm bound and determined to keep it on the line. It's the only twin at Addison thats reasonably affordable to use for multi training.

If price isn't the detracting factor, why isn't it flying more? How has your school been marketing it? How easy is it to schedule? Are your MEIs good instructors and easy to work with? There are *soooo* many factors to look at beyond price.

Monarch is the only other place on the field that has twin training. I was in there the other day and they were renting one of thier Duchesses for 350 an hour, my jaw damn near hit the floor!!

Is it flying? If it is, obviously price is not the determining factor for keeping a plane in the air. They must have found a way to attract customers to it regardless of price and hopefully they're turning a profit. If it's not flying, then who cares what it rents for because both your school and Monarch are losing money as both twins sit on the ramp.

I'm considering seriously slashing my fee down to a pittance just so I can keep the thing flying.

Do whatever you want, but I'd strongly advise against this idea. Here's one of many rules for running a flight school: If you try to compete on price alone, you'll lose every time. Competing on price only works for commodities that are all virtually identical (gas stations, for instance). You need to find a way to sell your product based on other qualities.

Sell it on the idea that your instructors are more available, more experienced, more professional, the airport is a shorter commute for your clients, the plane can carry more and go faster than any other plane in your fleet, imagine the trips they can take that they hadn't considered taking before...I don't know...tell potential customers it's just a heck of a lot more fun to shove two throttles forward. What an awesome way to have a good time and improve their skills while resetting their IPC/BFR requirements. Play on their egos, ask them how many of their pilot friends are multi-engine rated, show them they're joining an elite group of aviators. I don't know what will do the trick for your operation, but go out and start hustling based on almost anything other than price.

Have you cold called any former clients who might have the slightest interest in getting a multi-engine rating? Call them up and find out why they haven't gotten their multi rating yet, and don't take price for the answer--if they really were motivated to get it, they'd come up with the money. A few grand is nothing for somebody who's motivated. A VFR G1000 checkout at my flight school costs about $700. I routinely give checkouts to pilots who don't have a lot of cash and I'm surprised want to invest that kind of money. They do it for no other reason than the fact that it's new, fun, interesting, something different, and somewhat useful. Why would a multi rating be any different?

How about the multi-engine rated former renters? Why did they stop renting it? Call them up and find out. Again, don't take price for an answer. Ask them why they weren't the cool guy who rolled up to the last pancake breakfast in a twin rather than a lame old 152.

Also, how is your twin perceived by the instructors/staff at your school? Do they ever make comments, even jokingly, about how it's expensive/wasteful/anything else negative about flying it? If not, great. If so, put a stop to that immediately. It's all on a subconscious level, but it's telling potential customers they'd be stupid to fly the thing any more than absolutely necessary. When was the last time you heard a BMW salesperson joke about how only rich old SOBs buy his cars? Never, right? That's because it may or may not be true, but he doesn't want any of his customers to think to themselves, "Gee, I want to be known as a rich old SOB, I think I should buy one of his BMWs." The way your staff refer to their own product plays a huge role in what customers think to themselves.

First they sell the RG, now they might be gettin rid of the twin. As rewarding as teaching primary students is, I'd like to expand my horizons a bit, and this move is going to seriously limit my student base not to mention put an abrupt halt on my career.

Haha...no offense, but I have to call BS on this.

Getting rid of the twin is not going to limit your student base, as you yourself said it hardly ever flies. How can something limit you if you're not using it? I haven't taught at an operation with a twin in years and I still have more business than I can handle.

Second, halt your career? Come on...aside from the fact that pretty much everyone's careers are halted right now no matter where they're at or what they're flying, access to a twin is not the determining factor in career movement. I know numerous pilots who have had successful careers without ever working as MEIs. All this means is that your career progression is changing course, not halting.
 
They will. In fact, some instructors have been willing to pay part of the cost of the airplane. But discounting your rates to get ME students tends to create ill-will among the other instructors, and the student tends to get poor service in return. The instructor is a small part of the student's overall cost, but a large part of a successful training experience; that's the last place the student should pinch pennies.

Well put. The instructor can make or break your learning experience, and when you find a good one, appreciate it for what it's worth. CFI's may be a dime-a-dozen, but the good ones are worth their weight in gold.
 
If price isn't the detracting factor, why isn't it flying more? How has your school been marketing it? How easy is it to schedule? Are your MEIs good instructors and easy to work with? There are *soooo* many factors to look at beyond price.



Is it flying? If it is, obviously price is not the determining factor for keeping a plane in the air. They must have found a way to attract customers to it regardless of price and hopefully they're turning a profit. If it's not flying, then who cares what it rents for because both your school and Monarch are losing money as both twins sit on the ramp.



Do whatever you want, but I'd strongly advise against this idea. Here's one of many rules for running a flight school: If you try to compete on price alone, you'll lose every time. Competing on price only works for commodities that are all virtually identical (gas stations, for instance). You need to find a way to sell your product based on other qualities.

Sell it on the idea that your instructors are more available, more experienced, more professional, the airport is a shorter commute for your clients, the plane can carry more and go faster than any other plane in your fleet, imagine the trips they can take that they hadn't considered taking before...I don't know...tell potential customers it's just a heck of a lot more fun to shove two throttles forward. What an awesome way to have a good time and improve their skills while resetting their IPC/BFR requirements. Play on their egos, ask them how many of their pilot friends are multi-engine rated, show them they're joining an elite group of aviators. I don't know what will do the trick for your operation, but go out and start hustling based on almost anything other than price.

Have you cold called any former clients who might have the slightest interest in getting a multi-engine rating? Call them up and find out why they haven't gotten their multi rating yet, and don't take price for the answer--if they really were motivated to get it, they'd come up with the money. A few grand is nothing for somebody who's motivated. A VFR G1000 checkout at my flight school costs about $700. I routinely give checkouts to pilots who don't have a lot of cash and I'm surprised want to invest that kind of money. They do it for no other reason than the fact that it's new, fun, interesting, something different, and somewhat useful. Why would a multi rating be any different?

How about the multi-engine rated former renters? Why did they stop renting it? Call them up and find out. Again, don't take price for an answer. Ask them why they weren't the cool guy who rolled up to the last pancake breakfast in a twin rather than a lame old 152.

Also, how is your twin perceived by the instructors/staff at your school? Do they ever make comments, even jokingly, about how it's expensive/wasteful/anything else negative about flying it? If not, great. If so, put a stop to that immediately. It's all on a subconscious level, but it's telling potential customers they'd be stupid to fly the thing any more than absolutely necessary. When was the last time you heard a BMW salesperson joke about how only rich old SOBs buy his cars? Never, right? That's because it may or may not be true, but he doesn't want any of his customers to think to themselves, "Gee, I want to be known as a rich old SOB, I think I should buy one of his BMWs." The way your staff refer to their own product plays a huge role in what customers think to themselves.



Haha...no offense, but I have to call BS on this.

Getting rid of the twin is not going to limit your student base, as you yourself said it hardly ever flies. How can something limit you if you're not using it? I haven't taught at an operation with a twin in years and I still have more business than I can handle.

Second, halt your career? Come on...aside from the fact that pretty much everyone's careers are halted right now no matter where they're at or what they're flying, access to a twin is not the determining factor in career movement. I know numerous pilots who have had successful careers without ever working as MEIs. All this means is that your career progression is changing course, not halting.

Great post!

Have you thought about holding a free ME ground school? Promote the heck out of it, then hold a two hour basic aerodynamics class with the sole intent of signing up ME students. You might even talk the owners into offering an incentive to anyone who signs up at the conclusion of the session.

When I owned a ME on lease-back I started a referral program where pilots who referred a new customer, who then bought a 10 hour ME program, would get free flight time for their flight review in my twin.
 
in the 1980's when I received my private pilots license there was an option to get a multi add on for $1250.

The flight school talked me out of it because, "no one would ever rent a low time pilot a twin" and "if you owned a twin no one would insure you with such low time, so there is no reason to get that rating".

Many years later, it cost me a whole lot more to get that twin rating.

Maybe if you put together a program that would target the private pilots (most common license) for a muti add on, you might steer some business over to that twin. The rating wouldn't hurt them and actually might do them some good. Just some thoughts.

Joe
 
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