Pilot Internships, and why I won't work for free.

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Firebird2XC

Well-Known Member
I recently just exited a pilot internship program.

In my spare hours, I was attending class to learn how to fly a King Air through a local simulator training program.

Why was I doing that when I currently have a full time flying job?

Networking, mostly, and a chance to continue learning. But wait a minute, let's look a little closer.

The program director clearly states: "You are not employees. Your purpose here is to sit in the right seat during simulator periods and be a Non-Flying Pilot for a testing student. After 80 simulator sessions, you will be given a type rating."

I did the math, and 80 simulator periods, at four hours a piece, comes to less than I make now for my hourly wage as an actual pilot.

Factor in no per diem, no benefits, and a program that essentially operates on an off-the-book promise, the end result is somewhat modest compensation for my skills.

Here, alas, is the kicker- Were it not for the people sitting in to "throw the gear handle", the space would be occupied by another student, or, in the absence of a student, another instructor.

This company has recently laid off many instructors, including the two that just brought me into the program.

Seeing as how my training would be of marginal cost to the company, and the eventual type rating would be almost entirely a financial by-product of my long-term participation, that would mean I was working for free.

Nearly, anyhow.

Given the current economy and the value I place on my skills, I'm not going to work for anything near "free". If someone wants me to have a type rating in order to hire me, they can pay for it themselves.

Don't work for free, people. It comes at a direct cost to someone else, and hugely undervalues your time.

That is all. :)
 
even if ther's not a student to fill the right seat during training (at a place like Flight Safety), at least they're paying the person to throw the gear handle about $8/hr

good that you're standing up for your self worth; i wish more would
 
Very well said. We need more pilots to follow your example if we ever want to compensated appropriately for the job that we do.
 
I'm confused you're sitting in the right seat of a simulator as an instructor? If you're not there as an instructor don't you normally have to pay to fly a simulator?
 
While I agree not to pay for training or work for free, I have different feelings about this particular program (I'm assuming SimuFlite's right-seat program)

Here's why...

1.) You can do it completely on your own time. If you can't make a simulator session that's fine, you're not required to take it. Therefore, I do it whenever my flight instructing schedule allows. If only nights and weekends work, let your scheduler know and he/she'll accommodate you.

2.) A 4 hour simulator session is for 2 clients. Since you'd be with a single client it's scheduled for 3 hours. I'd say the average session lasts 2.5 hours. Those will change your figures a little bit. For me, being very conservative, that ends up being $230/hr or about $150/hr if you count the brief/debrief times.

3.) In my year and a half in the program I've gone through 3 full initials and 1 recurrent. I'll have another recurrent and initial scheduled shortly. I'm Part 135 current in two aircraft and PIC typed in one (soon to be 2). Even if you don't get to put it to use, this all looks great on a resume.

4.) Networking is incredible here. Job bites (and occasional offer) use to come weekly when things were booming. Unfortunately, with the downturn, now they're about once a month. The most recent was yesterday and looks like it might pan out with some contract work. The instructors there have been incredible in giving me wonderful references and putting my name out to anybody looking for an SIC.

5.) Lets not forget the training that's you can't put a price on; for instance CRM. I've flown with over 70 guys and gals from around the world all in an intense training environment. You learn from them, they learn from you. They take you out to lunch, you get a business card, the next thing you know it you have a job offer.

I came into the program as a 600hr CFII with no jet or crew experience, so it's been a great deal. You certainly have to take it for what it is. There's a sacrifice of time with the program so I can certainly understand why people might not be up for that. However, in my experience, I give it a big thumbs up!
 
AirVenture said:
While I agree not to pay for training or work for free, I have different feelings conflicting ones?

1.) You can do it completely on your own time.

2.) I'd say the average session lasts 2.5 hours. Those will change your figures a little bit. For me, being very conservative, that ends up being $230/hr or about $150/hr if you count the brief/debrief times.

3.) Even if you don't get to put it to use, this all looks great on a resume.

4.) Networking is incredible here.

5.) You learn from them, they learn from you. They take you out to lunch, you get a business card, the next thing you know it you have a job offer.

I came into the program as a 600hr CFII with no jet or crew experience, so it's been a great deal.
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I'm sorry. I generally try not to call people out, and I'm glad it worked out for you, but #### ###.

What you've done is taken a paid position and justified its benefits to outweigh no pay.

Every PAID job I have has all of your benefits you listed above, the difference was that I was paid.

1. My CFI schedule was according to me. I'm was paid (after the school cut) $25/hr + benes.

2. I was paid as a CFI to fly aircraft that rented for up to $300/hr + the $50 they're paying for me, same prices as your simulator

3. Being paid looks great on my resume

4. Can't tell you how many people I met and what those connections mean to me.

5. Yep, all while being paid.
 
moxiepilot said:
I'm sorry. I generally try not to call people out, and I'm glad it worked out for you, but #### ###.

What you've done is taken a paid position and justified its benefits to outweigh no pay.

Every PAID job I have has all of your benefits you listed above, the difference was that I was paid.

1. My CFI schedule was according to me. I'm was paid (after the school cut) $25/hr + benes.

2. I was paid as a CFI to fly aircraft that rented for up to $300/hr + the $50 they're paying for me, same prices as your simulator

3. Being paid looks great on my resume

4. Can't tell you how many people I met and what those connections mean to me.

5. Yep, all while being paid.
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If it's worth it to him to do it what's it to you?
 
Killtron2000 said:
If it's worth it to him to do it what's it to you?
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this is what it is to me, a la GA or "will fly for free"

Killtron2000 said:
If you're not there as an instructor don't you normally have to pay to fly a simulator?
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Don't really know why it got my panties all in a bunch, but it does. Well actually I do know. It should be a paid position not an "internship" which is just a disguised way of saying a company isn't paying someone for something that should be paid.

Perhaps I'm grumpy because I'm still unemployed like a lot of others. Perhaps it's because if people weren't doing stuff like this for free, I might have a paltry $8/hr job flying, but being paid to do it.

Perhaps it just works me up because of the injustice.
 
moxiepilot said:
this is what it is to me, a la GA or "will fly for free"



Don't really know why it got my panties all in a bunch, but it does. Well actually I do know. It should be a paid position not an "internship" which is just a disguised way of saying a company isn't paying someone for something that should be paid.

Perhaps I'm grumpy because I'm still unemployed like a lot of others. Perhaps it's because if people weren't doing stuff like this for free, I might have a paltry $8/hr job flying, but being paid to do it.

Perhaps it just works me up because of the injustice.
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What injustice? It's his choice it's between him and this company you have no reason to berate him for doing this. Just because you feel it ought to be a certain way doesn't mean anything you don't get to just decide what a pilots time is worth. This touches on a much larger issue about free market economies that I don't really feel like getting into. I can't really get worked up about this since this is one of those things that no one can do much about.
 
Lots of people do unpaid internships in every industry. Just because you got scammed into doing it for a king air type isn't a negative reflection on internships in general. Too many people on this board have never been outside aviation. Every internship in the history of the world has been "doing someone else's job for free". Head on over to your local university and sit down with the dean of the business college and lay out your arguments on why none of his student's should do internships :rolleyes:

Also, as far as I know, there is 1 paid airline internship. UPS. Good luck.
 
I don't know that I'd call it working for free, since a type rating costs many many thousands of dollars (depending upon the type). AirVenture has calculated the cost/benefit as something like $150 per hour in the sim that he is receiving in compensation. I'm not sure of how he got his numbers, but I'd guess $50 dollars to $75 per hour in equivalent cost would be a reasonable assumption(?). Not too bad a pay rate. Anyway, I have more of a problem with this program when Simuflight has instructors laid off, rather than on the principle of getting paid with an aircraft Type Rating instead of getting cash. I'd like to see guys not do the unpaid right seat program to help push S-F to bring instructors back on the payroll.
 
I've not been through the program but from what I was able to learn about it, i felt it was not really taking someones job. I was kind of under the impression that the instructors are there to teach...not preform the required duties of SIC which is what the unpaid SIC people are there for. To fill that position, thus freeing the instructor to teach. Am I wrong in that assumption.

Seems to me you are getting compensated, with type ratings and networking. What I would call an injustice would be if the SIC was expected to teach while there are instructors out of work.
 
SteveC said:
. I'd like to see guys not do the unpaid right seat program to help push S-F to bring instructors back on the payroll.
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i would like to see the instructors brought back on the payroll, but are they going how are they going to be able to? Obviously they felt they couldn't afford them under the current system, so how are they going to do it when now they have to now that they would have to pay an instructor for duties he probably didn't do in the first place.

Again I could be totally wrong in how this system works.
 
SteveC said:
I don't know that I'd call it working for free, since a type rating costs many many thousands of dollars (depending upon the type). AirVenture has calculated the cost/benefit as something like $150 per hour in the sim that he is receiving in compensation. I'm not sure of how he got his numbers, but I'd guess $50 dollars to $75 per hour in equivalent cost would be a reasonable assumption(?). Not too bad a pay rate. Anyway, I have more of a problem with this program when Simuflight has instructors laid off, rather than on the principle of getting paid with an aircraft Type Rating instead of getting cash. I'd like to see guys not do the unpaid right seat program to help push S-F to bring instructors back on the payroll.
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I think what happened at Simuflite is they kicked people out of the front door and brought them through the back window as contract workers.

I have seem MANY people get jobs out of Simuflites right seat program. We had a CFI once land a 70K a year salary B-200 job from the program.

I am not the biggest fan of their training at Simulflite. I went through 2 initials there and it was VERY sub-par. The instructor had 0 time in type, which I guess is not uncommon.
 
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