? Regarding Flight School Rates

MikeOH58 said:
I make it very clear to my students that if we are booked from 12-2, that means I expect them to be ready to begin a lesson at 12...Not start pre-flighting at 12. I hold the right to bill from the time we shake hands hello, to the time we shake hands goodbye...$40/hour is very little for a professional service.
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I AGREE 100%, Ive had a student that starts his watch when we meet and stops it when i sign his logbook. we flew for 1.6, and we talked for probably 10 minutes before we flew, groudn reference maneuvers entry/exit, PTS standards, etc etc.. then preflight, which i was there for asking whats this wahts that.. then we got back talked about how WE did, i always say WE, it makes it easier on them when they mess up, and what WE need to work on for next time. MAybe another 10 minutes. So we meet at 10am, we shook hands goodbye at 1230. I charged him 2.0 exactally.. 1.6 for the flight and .4 for pre/post flight ground instruction. HE GOT REALLY REALLY PISSED, saying that he cant belive how he is being over charged, how he NEVER IN THE PAST was charged for ground from any of his instructors and that I was over charging him etc etc. He went to the chief pilot, and yelled a storm up and down about me over charging. My Chief pretty much told him to piss off and never come back. I love when the Chief takes your side for once. But since that day I ALWAYS watch whats going on with the clock and MY TIME!

As flight instructors, our pay is WHAT WE MAKE IT ... so... YOU SHOULD ALWAYS GET PAID For YOUR SERVICES... FACT! NOTHING ELSE... If you are there, DOING YOUR PROFESSIONAL SERIVCE, YOU NEED TO BE COMPENSATED FOR THOSE SERVICES, anyone that flies for free or charges TOO LITTLE to get MORE FLIGHT TIME... id love to have a "back ally"/ "come to jesus" meeting with them!! =)
 
MikeOH58 said:
I make it very clear to my students that if we are booked from 12-2, that means I expect them to be ready to begin a lesson at 12...Not start pre-flighting at 12. I hold the right to bill from the time we shake hands hello, to the time we shake hands goodbye...$40/hour is very little for a professional service.
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BTAcola said:
I AGREE 100%, Ive had a student that starts his watch when we meet and stops it when i sign his logbook. we flew for 1.6, and we talked for probably 10 minutes before we flew, groudn reference maneuvers entry/exit, PTS standards, etc etc.. then preflight, which i was there for asking whats this wahts that.. then we got back talked about how WE did, i always say WE, it makes it easier on them when they mess up, and what WE need to work on for next time. MAybe another 10 minutes. So we meet at 10am, we shook hands goodbye at 1230. I charged him 2.0 exactally.. 1.6 for the flight and .4 for pre/post flight ground instruction. HE GOT REALLY REALLY PISSED, saying that he cant belive how he is being over charged, how he NEVER IN THE PAST was charged for ground from any of his instructors and that I was over charging him etc etc. He went to the chief pilot, and yelled a storm up and down about me over charging. My Chief pretty much told him to piss off and never come back. I love when the Chief takes your side for once. But since that day I ALWAYS watch whats going on with the clock and MY TIME!
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Points well made. I agree. There is an issue of establishing respect and being fairly compensated for both time and skills.

I think that it comes down to personal styles. The extremes are Socialism and Capitalism. I aim for the middle of the road. In a parallel world, I have utilized lawyers that charged by the minute for phone calls. It made me not want to call them very often. On the other hand I have made some good friends of professionals (lawyers, architects and CPAs) who don't mind sharing of their expertise even though the 'expertise related communications' could have been viewed as billable time. Not all glasses are "Fiscally colored".

BTAcola said:
As flight instructors, our pay is WHAT WE MAKE IT ... so... YOU SHOULD ALWAYS GET PAID For YOUR SERVICES... FACT! NOTHING ELSE... If you are there, DOING YOUR PROFESSIONAL SERIVCE, YOU NEED TO BE COMPENSATED FOR THOSE SERVICES, anyone that flies for free or charges TOO LITTLE to get MORE FLIGHT TIME... id love to have a "back ally"/ "come to jesus" meeting with them!! =)
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Anytime that you'd want to have a "meeting", I'd be glad to attend. Venue change, though; Local Public House over good Stout/Porter. The topic I'd like to discuss is "What does Free mean?" Bring an open mind. =)
 
The fact that a CFI's services can be bought for under $50/hr just simply boggles my mind.

Yeah yeah, I know, the market place......

But you know what? You pay over $100/hr to rent the plane.

....And your life depends on the CFI being good.



Seriously, stop and think about what it costs to hire to personal services of a:

personal fitness trainer
ski instructor
tutor for your kid
surfing instructor
interior decorator
gardener [My lawn service charges $40/hr for a guy who doesn't speak English]
plumber
computer technician
tax preparer
financial planner
accountant
lawyer
doctor



Anyway, I let my CFI lapse.

Frankly, I had no motivation to provide those services, other than from the goodness of my own heart.....which mastercard strangely will not accecpt as a payment method.

I don't claim to be god's gift to aviation.... (just to women ;-) ....but I could teach a student pilot quite a bit based on my 23 years of flying experience.


But I won't.

I've reached a point in my life where I am collectable in a lawsuit should anything go wrong during a student pilot's training. Back when I was a 21 year old CFI with not a pot to pee in, that wasn't an issue.

Furthermore, I've got better things to do than sit in a hot sweaty Cessna yelling "more right rudder Mrs. Smith." I reather sit in a hot sweaty sailboat cockpit yelling "Hey Charlie, hand me another beer will ya!"


Would I give flight lessons today for $100/hr? Maybe....but only if I was hard up for cash. And I liked the student. Or if she was a Dallas cowboy cheerleader.
[WHAP! Ouch, my wife just whacked me on my head.]


Thinking back to my student pilot days, all my CFI's had newly minted tickets. Less than a few hundred hours of flight time.

Looking back on it, frankly they didn't know $#!+
Neither did I.


So I suppose at $25/hr for lessons, I got what I paid for.


Most any CFI can teach basic flying skills and manuevers.

Good judgement and seasoned experience? That's priceless. And life saving.


How much do you current CFI's know?
How much are you charging?


.
 
MikeOH58 said:
I make it very clear to my students that if we are booked from 12-2, that means I expect them to be ready to begin a lesson at 12...Not start pre-flighting at 12. I hold the right to bill from the time we shake hands hello, to the time we shake hands goodbye...$40/hour is very little for a professional service.
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I understand where you're coming from but this can not always be expected. I speak from experience at my particular flight school. The instructors are generally booked in 2 hour blocks, sometimes 4. Almost all of the time when you're scheduled with an instructor on a certain plane, that plane is also scheduled prior to your lesson with an instructor. They technically are allowed to have the plane until the ending time of their block, which is always the starting time for your block. It always happens that they are taxing up 5 minutes prior, 2 minutes prior, or exactly at the start time of your lesson. How am I supposed to have the plane preflighted and ready to go at the exact moment my block begins if they're using their block time up in such a manner? This is no attack at you, but I experienced an instructor at my flight school who billed in the same manner. I had two prior instructors who never billed me for any ground except for that in which ground instruction was actually given. Then I had this particular instructor would would charge me for time they had to wait on me preflighting the plane. This person was a very good instructor but I felt this practice to be a little unfair. I can understand charging a student for ground if the CFI feels the student is abusing their time by showing up late or using the blocked out time wastefully by chatting on a phone instead of preflighting the plane, but the CFI also has to realize certain things are out of the student's hands.
 
Murdoughnut said:
Club CFI charges $35, flight school CFI charges $41.
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Not that it excuses overbilling of ground, but keep in mind that when your club CFI is paid $35/hour, he likely gets to keep all of it. More often than not, your flight school may charge you $41/hour for the CFI, but is only paying the CFI somewhere between $15-20/hour.

I would talk with your CFI and ask him the reason for the ground charges.
 
blaise723 said:
I understand where you're coming from but ....
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Blaise- Where in HOU do you fly out of? I used to fly out of a Flight School there a few years ago?

CDNPilotDave said:
Points well made. ...

Anytime that you'd want to have a "meeting", I'd be glad to attend. Venue change, though; Local Public House over good Stout/Porter. The topic I'd like to discuss is "What does Free mean?" Bring an open mind. =)
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Now your speaking my language!!! =) Free means, YOUR BUYING THE BEER! haha :beer:
 
imatworkallday said:
I agree with that too. I make it a point to explain the charges for ground instruction. I also make it a point to round down to the nearest .1 and take off about the same to compensate for any bs session we have.
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Thats what I always tried to do. Basically asking myself how much I would want to pay for that given lesson and then charge something similar.
 
In the UK for instance instance and in most european ab initio flight schools, instructors cost $100 per hour. A FI can easy make 60k Euros a year. The jaa system doesn't allow any ATP type cfi minting. You start as a vfr instructor, and dual given is a requirement for IR and Multi.

It is easier in most cases, market conditions permitting to go to a right seat in a jet than obtain all you fi ratings.

Scarcity pushes the rates up...

That is why guys come to the US for training, and then convert. Pain in the neck but it is cheaper.
 
granlistillo said:
In the UK for instance instance and in most european ab initio flight schools, instructors cost $100 per hour. A FI can easy make 60k Euros a year. The jaa system doesn't allow any ATP type cfi minting. You start as a vfr instructor, and dual given is a requirement for IR and Multi.

It is easier in most cases, market conditions permitting to go to a right seat in a jet than obtain all you fi ratings.

Scarcity pushes the rates up...

That is why guys come to the US for training, and then convert. Pain in the neck but it is cheaper.
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This isn't entirely correct. I have a buddy working at flight school primarily doing ppl training (and a few disco flights) and he makes £10 (roughly $16) per flight hour and he isn't allowed to bill for briefing time. Also, remember the cost of living in London is pretty damn high.

That said, he did his training at a place called FTE in Jerez and paid 100,000 euros for his training. The ppl instructors there are probably making 40k euros a year.
 
Hubbs said:
This isn't entirely correct. I have a buddy working at flight school primarily doing ppl training (and a few disco flights) and he makes £10 (roughly $16) per flight hour and he isn't allowed to bill for briefing time. Also, remember the cost of living in London is pretty damn high.

That said, he did his training at a place called FTE in Jerez and paid 100,000 euros for his training. The ppl instructors there are probably making 40k euros a year.
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I was making a broad contrast to show the difference between the EU and the US.
I "live" in Jerez (can't commute it), so I guess I live tenn... Anywho, I am VERY familar with FTE and your quote is low and it goes up for IR and ME. BTW FTE is a UK CAA FTO based in Spain. The cost of living in that area and the strength of the euro would make an entry level FI on par with a year 1 regional captain at the very least vis a vis purchasing power.

My post was referring to the more reputable ab initio schools, and based on discussions with several flight schools, on what the pay is if I were to get the JAA FI certs. OK?

Just one guys opinion and maybe I am all wet.
 
Murdoughnut said:
There are really 3, but one doesn't instruct (he's a full-time corporate pilot), and the other lost his medical. There's 15 of us in the club, so yeah, it makes it tough.

I've never understood why, but our insurance and club rules prevent hiring and flying with an instructor outside of the club in club aircraft.
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Correct me if I am wrong, but if you are doing your IR, then he doesn't have to have the medical since you are the PIC (obviously only if his CFII hasn't lapsed). I have heard of several CFIIs doing just that when they have lost their medical. Just a thought...
 
HeyEng said:
Correct me if I am wrong, but if you are doing your IR, then he doesn't have to have the medical since you are the PIC (obviously only if his CFII hasn't lapsed). I have heard of several CFIIs doing just that when they have lost their medical. Just a thought...
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If they go IMC, the instructor must be the acting PIC, and therefore must have a medical.
 
Roger said:
If they go IMC, the instructor must be the acting PIC, and therefore must have a medical.
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...unless there's another instrument rated pilot that's being the "safety pilot" and acting as PIC while Mr. student is getting dual and the CFII is in the back seat.

-mini
 
I am in a flying club, we prefer to use instructors that are members, but if one is not avaliable we have a mechanism for our members to use an outside instructor in our planes. Check with the board or gourp that manages your club, seems reasonable they would let you grab another instructor. They may have one of your club instructors to a checkout with the one you pick, which seems reasonable to me.

I charge my students for close to most of the time we spend together. If a BS session breaks out I dont charge for that, but think it is very reasonable to charge for my time. I do try to make sure we make the best use of all of that time. The student should get their money's worth, but the instructor should also feel that they were properly compensated for their time. Charging for more than what you are together is BS in my mind.
 
Murdoughnut said:
... So I've been trying to finally finish up my IR, but our club's only instructor has been tied up with his wife's health problems, so I've been forced to rent from the local flight school. As bad as it is paying flight school rates when you co-own your own perfectly good aircraft, I've noticed that I'm getting charged ground school rates for the time we're not in the air - and not in ground school.

For instance, I had a flight last week where I arrived, picked up the keys, did the pre-flight, flew, and came back long enough for the instructor to sign my log book. I was charged 0.5 hours of ground. The day before I was charged 1.0 hours of ground, when we probably sat and chatted for about 15-minutes.

Is this normal now? Back in the day I was only charged ground fees if you actually received ground instruction. Just curious.
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I had an instructor that did that when I was getting my ppl. He would way over charge me for ground time; so I called him on it one day and he stopped. He wouldn't admit he was doing it but the overcharging stopped.
 
When I was instructing, I typically charged 0.3 hours of ground plus whatever hobbs time we flew. I thought that 0.3 was more than reasonable to cover the preflight and postflight briefing. Especially considering that I could be at work 10 hours a day and only get paid for 4 hours or less. For some weird reason nobody wanted to fly a 152 on those lovely summer afternoons in Phoenix. I could never figure out why.:sarcasm:. I still had to be there a minimum of 8 hours a day though.

The FBO where I instructed charged $47 per hour for ground and flight instruction, and I only got $15 of that. Everything else went to the flight school and they still went out of business.
 
Mad Doggy Dog said:
I remember I used to get $20/hr back in the early 90's.
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That is still a rough average of instructor pay. In fact I don't know any non-independent instructors that make more than 20.
So I think it really answers the question why hobbs+.2 pre and post in no longer sustainable.

I personally feel like I am one hell of a bargain at 33/ hour flight and 21/ground.

I tell all of my new students, they are charged for my time. Block time.
If they schedule two hours of my time and I am with them for two hours, don't you think I should get paid for two hours.

If you feel like you are being unfairly charged, I would talk to him about it. If he charges block time and you don't like that, find a younger, more eager guy.

Also, no matter where you go, expect to do a VOR check if you will be using it for your instrument training at the FBO. I am just conjecturing from your situation.
 
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