3407 Strikes a Cord Redux/Whatever you guys are arguing abou

[Killtron2000]

Re: 3407 Strikes a Cord Redux/Whatever you guys are arguing

I don't know if a Q400 has an alternator or not. Nor do I care.

You provided an example, which was completely irrelevant to the ability to fly the goddamn plane.

If you can't figure out that your hypothetical is just plain stupid, I can't help you.

Again, what the hell do ANY of your hypothetical questions have to do with flying the plane?

I gave an example of a question which referenced alternators as an example to which you replied...

How the hell is an interviewee at say, Colgan, supposed to know about the electrical systems of a Q400 when the closest they've come to flying it is looking at the thing on their walk in for the interview?

So either I was asking talking about the alternators on the Q400 or you can't comprehend what you read. I don't think there is any further need for me to explain.

 

[TUCKnTRUCK]

Re: 3407 Strikes a Cord Redux/Whatever you guys are arguing

As a former mechanic, there's a simple concept here.

Just treat it like a crime scene investigation. Remember as many details as possible, and record them in the write-up. Assuming it's somehow related, anyhow. Then let maintenance figure it out. The more data they have, the better conclusion they'll make.

In other words, don't diagnose faults as a pilot unless you're a maintenance pilot. You'll just as likely send maintenance down the wrong path as you would the right one. All maintenance really wants is for you to say, "This was on, this was not, and I did this, this, and this, and this happened."

No matter how well versed you are in aircraft systems, an experienced mechanic will trump you any day. Take a load off your brain and stop trying to do their jobs. It's why they're there.

To be honest, a pilot with excellent systems knowledge can help narrow down issues. The mechanics would learn pretty quick who knew their stuff. I spent more than a few hours with Mel and Brian when they had a tough one going. Having a better working knowledge can help... Then again, I was also a mechanic in my previous employment.


Complex airplanes will have cascading failures, so it's pretty damn important to understand the systems. Or if you want to run 15 checklists after a dc bus fault go for it. I'll run just 1 correct one please.

 

[Killtron2000]

Re: 3407 Strikes a Cord Redux/Whatever you guys are arguing

What is so different then?

Please, enlighten us.

Why would they need a class on it if it's so similar? When was the last time you heard a student pilot calling out V1... V2... Rotate... or whatever it is you say. When was the last time you heard someone tell a student pilot they should take over the controls if they think their CFI is making a critical error?

 

[ctab5060X]

Re: 3407 Strikes a Cord Redux/Whatever you guys are arguing

Why would they need a class on it if it's so similar? When was the last time you heard a student pilot calling out V1... V2... Rotate... or whatever it is you say. When was the last time you heard someone tell a student pilot they should take over the controls if they think their CFI is making a critical error?

:banghead::banghead:


Obviously you have never sat through a CRM course before, otherwise you might actually have a clue.

Just like everything else involved with training at an airline, the CRM course is to build on the foundation that already exists. If you have no CRM skills at all, then a course during initial and once a year during recurrent isn't going to teach you much of anything at all.


Oh, and for the record... V2 comes after rotation. But, I wouldn't expect you to know "basic" flying knowledge like that. Not with all the super obscure technical knowledge that is out there...

 

[tonyw]

Re: 3407 Strikes a Cord Redux/Whatever you guys are arguing

So either I was asking talking the alternators on the Q400 or you can't comprehend what you read. I don't think there is any further need for me to explain.

Bullcrap.

You said the questions you posted would be good examples of questions that airlines should ask pilots.

It is clear that your questions have two problems.

First, according to the guys who actually have 121/135 experience, they show a complete lack of understanding of those operations.

Second, they are completely unrelated to the ability to fly a plane.

Now, don't go and get all pissy on me and everyone else just because your examples are full of crap.

Man up, show some cojones, and say I was wrong.

I ain't holding my breath waiting for that to happen.

 

[Killtron2000]

Re: 3407 Strikes a Cord Redux/Whatever you guys are arguing

:banghead::banghead:


Obviously you have never sat through a CRM course before, otherwise you might actually have a clue.

Just like everything else involved with training at an airline, the CRM course is to build on the foundation that already exists. If you have no CRM skills at all, then a course during initial and once a year during recurrent isn't going to teach you much of anything at all.


Oh, and for the record... V2 comes after rotation. But, I wouldn't expect you to know "basic" flying knowledge like that. Not with all the super obscure technical knowledge that is out there...

But you would agree CRM in a transport category aircraft is not the same as in a 172 with an instructor and student. What's the point of testing applicants on something they haven't had a chance to learn? V1 rotate v2 is basic knowledge in a CRJ but all I knew was V1 is first I had a 50-50 chance of getting it right. If I had gotten it right would it have shown I have any understanding of flying? Of course not but getting something like that (maybe not that exact thing) right at the sim evaluation would have made me look better but again would not actually be an indication of understanding. Hence the problem with putting "wet commercials" into a jet simulator. The results have more to do with luck than anything else.

 

[TUCKnTRUCK]

Re: 3407 Strikes a Cord Redux/Whatever you guys are arguing

Why would they need a class on it if it's so similar? When was the last time you heard a student pilot calling out V1... V2... Rotate... or whatever it is you say. When was the last time you heard someone tell a student pilot they should take over the controls if they think their CFI is making a critical error?

When was the last time you flew a trainer that had a take off profile? No need to call speeds that do not exist for your airplane. Calls here are 80knots, v1 rotate. No v2 call as it is a bugged second segment speed.

To be honest, the lack of ga crm training plays back to the backwards order this profession can go. If you have an instructor who is from a 121 enviroment, you will get crm training, and a look into the world of professional cockpits. This can only help new students, as they learn to better manage resourses available.

A lot of f16 drivers have excellent crm... And they are single pilot. Why can't a 152 driver?

Mr and rs were not bad pilots. Stop casting that stone. You have not flown with either. In this area of training, operations etc. You really just don't know. It's not your fault, you just are not here. You're like the 1st base umpire trying to call balls and strikes. You can judge when somebody misses, but otherwise you have a skewed perspective that doesn't allow you to see everything for what it is.

Imagine if you never did a "real" stall in training, and were taught to recover from this stall you never encountered wrong. How would you respond? On the note of the pitch up, the pusher is very strange. I just got to practice for my first time. It pushes, and your natural reaction is to fight it. It let's go and the yoke just pops into your lap. Combined with the nose up trim from the autopilot, and large power change the nose goes shooting up resulting in a secondary stall. It is not normal, and was not trained. Everybody here would have had their hands full, and I suspect not many of us would have had a different outcome. I will say that I feel my initial trainng on this stuff was woefully inadequat. It was an eye opener for me. Yes I realize that they never should have hit that point, but even that has twinges of poor, rushed and inadequat training. How about we stop the snap judgements of the pilots untill we fully understand what was going on? I can safely say, if it was just a case of 2 bad pilots, we wouldn't be having congressional hearings.

Btw, a 121 profile is well quizzed and explained in the ATP written... Which is a good idea to study for any airline interview. Lots of questions come from it

 

[Killtron2000]

Re: 3407 Strikes a Cord Redux/Whatever you guys are arguing

Bullcrap.

I showed absolutely that you didn't comprehend what I wrote which is not my fault and you want me to offer you another explanation? LOL

 

[Killtron2000]

Re: 3407 Strikes a Cord Redux/Whatever you guys are arguing

When was the last time you flew a trainer that had a take off profile? No need to call speeds that do not exist for your airplane. Calls here are 80knots, v1 rotate. No v2 call as it is a bugged second segment speed.

To be honest, the lack of ga crm training plays back to the backwards order this profession can go. If you have an instructor who is from a 121 enviroment, you will get crm training, and a look into the world of professional cockpits. This can only help new students, as they learn to better manage resourses available.

A lot of f16 drivers have excellent crm... And they are single pilot. Why can't a 152 driver?

Mr and rs were not bad pilots. Stop casting that stone. You have not flown with either. In this area of training, operations etc. You really just don't know. It's not your fault, you just are not here. You're like the 1st base umpire trying to call balls and strikes. You can judge when somebody misses, but otherwise you have a skewed perspective that doesn't allow you to see everything for what it is.

Imagine if you never did a "real" stall in training, and were taught to recover from this stall you never encountered wrong. How would you respond? On the note of the pitch up, the pusher is very strange. I just got to practice for my first time. It pushes, and your natural reaction is to fight it. It let's go and the yoke just pops into your lap. Combined with the nose up trim from the autopilot, and large power change the nose goes shooting up resulting in a secondary stall. It is not normal, and was not trained. Everybody here would have had their hands full, and I suspect not many of us would have had a different outcome. I will say that I feel my initial trainng on this stuff was woefully inadequat. It was an eye opener for me. Yes I realize that they never should have hit that point, but even that has twinges of poor, rushed and inadequat training. How about we stop the snap judgements of the pilots untill we fully understand what was going on? I can safely say, if it was just a case of 2 bad pilots, we wouldn't be having congressional hearings.

Btw, a 121 profile is well quizzed and explained in the ATP written... Which is a good idea to study for any airline interview. Lots of questions come from it

I will have to defer to your superior knowledge here. I don't actually know every facet of CRM in an airline cockpit so I can't point out every difference but what I do know makes me think it's very different. I don't know that I would call anything I do when I'm single pilot "CRM". Unless you count reassuring my very frightened passengers I only have to manage myself.

I would be very interested to know what would happen if the NTSB put other colgan pilots in a sim with that exact situation. If they all crash and burn than that would prove pretty conclusively it was a training problem otherwise I think it's open to debate.

 

[TUCKnTRUCK]

Re: 3407 Strikes a Cord Redux/Whatever you guys are arguing

I will have to defer to your superior knowledge here. I don't actually know every facet of CRM in an airline cockpit so I can't point out every difference but what I do know makes me think it's very different. I don't know that I would call anything I do when I'm single pilot "CRM". Unless you count reassuring my very frightened passengers I only have to manage myself.

I would be very interested to know what would happen if the NTSB put other colgan pilots in a sim with that exact situation. If they all crash and burn than that would prove pretty conclusively it was a training problem otherwise I think it's open to debate.

You can not recreate the situation in a sim. No matter how real a sim is, it is not real. To that fact, the q400 was never taken to the pusher in certification, due to that the sim has no real data to go by, so only can give you a best guess. Let me go so far as to say our spot training does that pretty much, and if it happened to me suddenly, it would be bad.

Thinkng that crm is only aplicable to a crew airplane is a grave mistake. Resourse managment is important in every cockpit no matter how many people fit in the cockpit.

 

[BobDDuck]

Re: 3407 Strikes a Cord Redux/Whatever you guys are arguing

Killtron, do your self a favor and go read a CRM book. The one by Tony Kerns is a good start, but there are others. You will discover that there really is no difference between CRM in a 152 and a 747. What you are talking about (callouts etc) are simply procedures that you learn, just like you learn to pull the carb heat on when you pull the power back in a small Cessna. No different.

 

[jynxyjoe]

Re: 3407 Strikes a Cord Redux/Whatever you guys are arguing

Killtron, do your self a favor and go read a CRM book. The one by Tony Kerns is a good start, but there are others. You will discover that there really is no difference between CRM in a 152 and a 747. What you are talking about (callouts etc) are simply procedures that you learn, just like you learn to pull the carb heat on when you pull the power back in a small Cessna. No different.

No Bob. You, and everyone else, just didn't understand/comprehend his example. It's obviously Killtron knows exactly what he's talking about, he's just so WELL versed in the topic, all of us just can't keep up.

 

[SpiraMirabilis]

Re: 3407 Strikes a Cord Redux/Whatever you guys are arguing

the "scariest" situation I got in the sim was a jammed elevator right after take off, it was pitching up and up -- no time to go through the full checklist so I just made sure it wasn't the AP, pushed some then yanked the pitch disconnect and had the PM get on the controls so we could decide which one worked. turns out I did get all the memory items, it just felt like I didn't if that makes sense.

also if the Q400 is anything like the 200 it has 2 DC generators / starters and 2 AC generators driven by the props which also can supply DC power via 2 TRUs.

 

[SoCalAprch]

Re: 3407 Strikes a Cord Redux/Whatever you guys are arguing

Imagine if you never did a "real" stall in training, and were taught to recover from this stall you never encountered wrong. How would you respond? On the note of the pitch up, the pusher is very strange. I just got to practice for my first time. It pushes, and your natural reaction is to fight it. It let's go and the yoke just pops into your lap. Combined with the nose up trim from the autopilot, and large power change the nose goes shooting up resulting in a secondary stall. It is not normal, and was not trained. Everybody here would have had their hands full, and I suspect not many of us would have had a different outcome. I will say that I feel my initial trainng on this stuff was woefully inadequat. It was an eye opener for me. Yes I realize that they never should have hit that point, but even that has twinges of poor, rushed and inadequat training. How about we stop the snap judgements of the pilots untill we fully understand what was going on? I can safely say, if it was just a case of 2 bad pilots, we wouldn't be having congressional hearings.

Well said!

I thought management was bad about throwing the pilots under the bus, now we have the CFIs doing it. Your out of your element KillTron! I think they already said that the lack of training was a big part of it in the hearings and you still argue as if somehow recovering a Cessna from a stall makes you qualified to critique what those pilots did up there. I haven't ever flown the Q series and won't pass judgment on anyone who has. Hell Ill go as far as to say that I won't pass judgement on any pilot out there. I don't know what they had going on up there, I don't know how that planes systems work. I don't truely know how I would have reacted, I can sit here and tell myself I would have done something different but who knows. I just hope that I am trained properly and don't have to experience what those two did that night in BUF.

Other than that, Im sorry you have such animosity towards the hiring system currently in place. Its obvious that it didn't work out for you. Keep trying and maybe with a rec or two you will one day get to experience the suck that is regional airlines.

 

[ctab5060X]

Re: 3407 Strikes a Cord Redux/Whatever you guys are arguing

But you would agree CRM in a transport category aircraft is not the same as in a 172 with an instructor and student.

No, I would not.

I don't actually know every facet of CRM in an airline cockpit so I can't point out every difference but what I do know makes me think it's very different. I don't know that I would call anything I do when I'm single pilot "CRM". Unless you count reassuring my very frightened passengers I only have to manage myself.

If you are the only resource you have to "manage", you have a lot to learn. Stop thinking about it as CRM and just drop the C. You are left with just "resource managment". Now go forward from there. Benefit of the doubt here... I would imagine that you as a CFI actually know more about and actually practice pretty good CRM, you just don't realize it.

Killtron, do your self a favor and go read a CRM book. The one by Tony Kerns is a good start, but there are others. You will discover that there really is no difference between CRM in a 152 and a 747. What you are talking about (callouts etc) are simply procedures that you learn, just like you learn to pull the carb heat on when you pull the power back in a small Cessna. No different.

:yeahthat:

 

[tonyw]

Re: 3407 Strikes a Cord Redux/Whatever you guys are arguing

I showed absolutely that you didn't comprehend what I wrote which is not my fault and you want me to offer you another explanation? LOL

You know why I don't understand what you're saying?

It's summed up right there in the "sentence" you wrote.

Do yourself a favor. Google "word salad."

That's just what you created there, son.

You make Sarah Palin seem intelligible.

Anyway, I stand by my statement that you're talking when you should be listening.

Hint, hint. You've got zero hours of 121/135 experience. People who have it are trying to teach you something based on their experience.

Now, it's just me, but I think you would be well served to sit down, shut up, and listen to people who actually know what the hell they are talking about.

Or you can act like you know more than them.

Your call. Unfortunately for you, I'm sure that I know which course of action you'll take.

 

[Killtron2000]

Re: 3407 Strikes a Cord Redux/Whatever you guys are arguing

You can not recreate the situation in a sim. No matter how real a sim is, it is not real. To that fact, the q400 was never taken to the pusher in certification, due to that the sim has no real data to go by, so only can give you a best guess. Let me go so far as to say our spot training does that pretty much, and if it happened to me suddenly, it would be bad.

Thinkng that crm is only aplicable to a crew airplane is a grave mistake. Resourse managment is important in every cockpit no matter how many people fit in the cockpit.

What I saw was the plane didn't stall until after the crew was trying to deal with it. It didn't look like it was recoverable after it finally did stall. Could you recreate the conditions that led up to the stall in sim and give those to another colgan crew?

I think this is just semantics now. When I'm by myself I don't do call outs I don't have to keep an eye on the other guy and if something goes wrong I don't have to make sure everyone in the cockpit is on the same page. There are resources available like ATC but I don't consider any of them to be "crew resources". I guess pre-folding your charts to show the right area could be analogous to briefing a crewmember since you're getting them both ready but I don't see who techniques for how you deal with objects in the cockpit is at all similar to how you deal with crewmembers.

You know why I don't understand what you're saying?

It's summed up right there in the "sentence" you wrote.

Do yourself a favor. Google "word salad."

That's just what you created there, son.

You make Sarah Palin seem intelligible.

Anyway, I stand by my statement that you're talking when you should be listening.

Hint, hint. You've got zero hours of 121/135 experience. People who have it are trying to teach you something based on their experience.

Now, it's just me, but I think you would be well served to sit down, shut up, and listen to people who actually know what the hell they are talking about.

Or you can act like you know more than them.

Your call. Unfortunately for you, I'm sure that I know which course of action you'll take.

The sentence I wrote makes perfect sense. I invite you to show me how what I wrote is a "word salad".

For the record I do have 135 experience so you're wrong there. I don't have any interest in the threads about how evil management is that invariably turn into giant whiney circlejerk sessions.

 

[Killtron2000]

Re: 3407 Strikes a Cord Redux/Whatever you guys are arguing

If you are the only resource you have to "manage", you have a lot to learn. Stop thinking about it as CRM and just drop the C. You are left with just "resource managment". Now go forward from there. Benefit of the doubt here... I would imagine that you as a CFI actually know more about and actually practice pretty good CRM, you just don't realize it.

The way I would deal with another crewmember in the cockpit is not the same way I would deal with a GPS. They are both resources but a GPS can't get it's feelings hurt or feel intimidated and when it does something you don't want it to do you can't reprogram it over the intercom.

 

[touch-n-go]

Re: 3407 Strikes a Cord Redux/Whatever you guys are arguing

When was the last time you flew a trainer that had a take off profile? No need to call speeds that do not exist for your airplane. Calls here are 80knots, v1 rotate. No v2 call as it is a bugged second segment speed.

To be honest, the lack of ga crm training plays back to the backwards order this profession can go. If you have an instructor who is from a 121 enviroment, you will get crm training, and a look into the world of professional cockpits. This can only help new students, as they learn to better manage resourses available.

A lot of f16 drivers have excellent crm... And they are single pilot. Why can't a 152 driver?

Mr and rs were not bad pilots. Stop casting that stone. You have not flown with either. In this area of training, operations etc. You really just don't know. It's not your fault, you just are not here. You're like the 1st base umpire trying to call balls and strikes. You can judge when somebody misses, but otherwise you have a skewed perspective that doesn't allow you to see everything for what it is.

Imagine if you never did a "real" stall in training, and were taught to recover from this stall you never encountered wrong. How would you respond? On the note of the pitch up, the pusher is very strange. I just got to practice for my first time. It pushes, and your natural reaction is to fight it. It let's go and the yoke just pops into your lap. Combined with the nose up trim from the autopilot, and large power change the nose goes shooting up resulting in a secondary stall. It is not normal, and was not trained. Everybody here would have had their hands full, and I suspect not many of us would have had a different outcome. I will say that I feel my initial trainng on this stuff was woefully inadequat. It was an eye opener for me. Yes I realize that they never should have hit that point, but even that has twinges of poor, rushed and inadequat training. How about we stop the snap judgements of the pilots untill we fully understand what was going on? I can safely say, if it was just a case of 2 bad pilots, we wouldn't be having congressional hearings.

Btw, a 121 profile is well quizzed and explained in the ATP written... Which is a good idea to study for any airline interview. Lots of questions come from it

:yeahthat::yeahthat:

 

[ctab5060X]

Re: 3407 Strikes a Cord Redux/Whatever you guys are arguing

The way I would deal with another crewmember in the cockpit is not the same way I would deal with a GPS. They are both resources but a GPS can't get it's feelings hurt or feel intimidated and when it does something you don't want it to do you can't reprogram it over the intercom.

You know, I was actually trying to be extremely well intentioned and point out that even though you have never sat through a fancy airline CRM course, you probably have pretty good CRM skills, but you just don't fully realize it. I still think that, but I know now you really have no clue as to what CRM really is. CRM is NOT just dealing with another crewmember in the cockpit. If you think that, you are dead wrong. Break it down... CRM is the management of the resources available to the crew.

If you look at one of the best examples of CRM (and the man still preaches CRM today), CA Al Haynes had a sim instructor on the flight deck who was NOT a member of the original crew. Why is this... because he used and managed the resources available at the time.

Would you look at things differently if it was called Cockpit Resourse Management?

There are resources available like ATC but I don't consider any of them to be "crew resources".

WRONG!

ATC is probably one of the biggest resources you have available to you as a crewmember, single pilot (you are still a crewmember) included.