FAR Grandfather

S

shdw

Well-Known Member
I had a student today that got his private in December of 69 and his commercial in December of 71. He claimed that he was grandfathered in for the instrument regulation that prevents you from flying for hire at night without an instrument rating. He said he was still held by the bounds of the 50NM regulation but that the night regulation had been grandfathered in and he could do it.

On another FAR he claimed he did not need a complex or high performance sign off as both of these were grandfathered in as well. I have never read anything or heard of anything like this before but without proof one way or another I didn't want to argue.

If anyone has some information they can provide here it would be much appreciated, thanks.
 
shdw said:
On another FAR he claimed he did not need a complex or high performance sign off as both of these were grandfathered in as well. I have never read anything or heard of anything like this before but without proof one way or another I didn't want to argue.
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14 CFR 61.31 said:
(e) Additional training required for operating complex airplanes. (1) Except as provided in paragraph (e)(2) of this section, no person may act as pilot in command of a complex airplane (an airplane that has a retractable landing gear, flaps, and a controllable pitch propeller; or, in the case of a seaplane, flaps and a controllable pitch propeller), unless the person has—
(i) Received and logged ground and flight training from an authorized instructor in a complex airplane, or in a flight simulator or flight training device that is representative of a complex airplane, and has been found proficient in the operation and systems of the airplane; and
(ii) Received a one-time endorsement in the pilot's logbook from an authorized instructor who certifies the person is proficient to operate a complex airplane.
(2) The training and endorsement required by paragraph (e)(1) of this section is not required if the person has logged flight time as pilot in command of a complex airplane, or in a flight simulator or flight training device that is representative of a complex airplane prior to August 4, 1997.
(f) Additional training required for operating high-performance airplanes. (1) Except as provided in paragraph (f)(2) of this section, no person may act as pilot in command of a high-performance airplane (an airplane with an engine of more than 200 horsepower), unless the person has—
(i) Received and logged ground and flight training from an authorized instructor in a high-performance airplane, or in a flight simulator or flight training device that is representative of a high-performance airplane, and has been found proficient in the operation and systems of the airplane; and
(ii) Received a one-time endorsement in the pilot's logbook from an authorized instructor who certifies the person is proficient to operate a high-performance airplane.
(2) The training and endorsement required by paragraph (f)(1) of this section is not required if the person has logged flight time as pilot in command of a high-performance airplane, or in a flight simulator or flight training device that is representative of a high-performance airplane prior to August 4, 1997.
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Douglas said:
Never heard of the first part, but x2 to roger,roger.
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I knew I should have looked at that FAR before I posted that, I thought about it then figured it couldn't be that simple. :(

Now just to figure out that first part.
 
What is this guy doing? Has he been active in flying since his '69 or has he been out of the game for a while?

I can understand him not "needing" a complex or high performance endorsment, but if he hasn't been flying one in several years I don't think it could hurt to get a little instruction, thus an endorsement.
As far as flying for hire at night.... he doesn't have an instrument ticket and doesn't want one I assume? Does he have a job flying and this is the reason he is asking?
 
dc3flyer said:
What is this guy doing? Has he been active in flying since his '69 or has he been out of the game for a while?

I can understand him not "needing" a complex or high performance endorsment, but if he hasn't been flying one in several years I don't think it could hurt to get a little instruction, thus an endorsement.
As far as flying for hire at night.... he doesn't have an instrument ticket and doesn't want one I assume? Does he have a job flying and this is the reason he is asking?
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That isn't the point, it doesn't matter to me what he is doing he has his BFR now and he flew fine. I am just curious if what he said is true that is all. Knowledge is power!!!!
 
But the question stands and I am curious too. Is he using his commercial for hire?

I think you will have to call the FSDO to see if they wrote something down about that. You don't just get grandfathered in, when FARS change, you need to follow them unless something is posted like the complex grandfather clause.
 
His certificate should list any restrictions, ie... 50nm, night, etc. I flew with a guy that had his CAA certificate from the 50's.
 
shdw said:
That isn't the point, it doesn't matter to me what he is doing he has his BFR now and he flew fine. I am just curious if what he said is true that is all. Knowledge is power!!!!
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It kind of IS the point.... if you gave him a BFR as a commercial pilot he should be aware of the commercial privileges and limitations of that certificate, regardless of how well he flies. I'm not saying it could or would come back and bite you, but just saying.
 
dc3flyer said:
It kind of IS the point.... if you gave him a BFR as a commercial pilot he should be aware of the commercial privileges and limitations of that certificate, regardless of how well he flies. I'm not saying it could or would come back and bite you, but just saying.
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Nobody here is aware of this stipulation, we cant expect them to know each and every bit of information. Especially when it has been asked here and as of yet is unanswered. He could list every limitation word for word out of the FARs including the instrument ones, he just made this statement about him being allowed to at night because it was grandfathered in which I have never heard of so here I am.

No he is not flying for hire, that is why I had no issues signing him off.

I didn't think to check his limitations, but he is fixing my trucks AC this week so I will check then and see, thanks.
 
The FAR's have clearly stipulated in past instances where things were grandfathered in such as the endorsements previously noted. I would be content to follow the FAR's as such but if your concerned about being 100% sure I certainly wouldn't hesitate to call the FSDO.
 
BillPerryCFI said:
The FAR's have clearly stipulated in past instances where things were grandfathered in such as the endorsements previously noted.
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At the same time, there are probably still a few CFIs out there who don't have instrument ratings; maybe even one or two without commercial certificates.

You'd have to go further to find out whether the certificate privileges that the person had when the certificate was issued are grandfathered or changed when the related reg changed.

btw, I'd only use the FSDO to point me to the applicable FAA advisory or regulatory material so I could verify whatever answer they gave.

FWIW, the defunct Part 61 FAQ took the view that shdw's "student" is absolutely correct:
Yes, a person who holds a commercial pilot certificate with the airplane rating but without the instrument-airplane rating issued prior to November 1, 1974 are grandfathered in
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Makes sense. 61.133(b) talks about what an "applicant" must have.

But, at the same time, that would not mean that he can go out and fly a Part 135 operation, since he doesn't meet the requirements for the operation.
 
shdw said:
Nobody here is aware of this stipulation, we cant expect them to know each and every bit of information. Especially when it has been asked here and as of yet is unanswered. He could list every limitation word for word out of the FARs including the instrument ones, he just made this statement about him being allowed to at night because it was grandfathered in which I have never heard of so here I am.

No he is not flying for hire, that is why I had no issues signing him off.

I didn't think to check his limitations, but he is fixing my trucks AC this week so I will check then and see, thanks.
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I wasn't trying to bust your chops man, I just think that you should have known what was going on (which you obviously did) before you would sign him off for a flight review. I also thought it would be interesting to hear what an old timer was doing with his piloting skills, other than flying the dog around.
 
dc3flyer said:
I wasn't trying to bust your chops man, I just think that you should have known what was going on (which you obviously did) before you would sign him off for a flight review. I also thought it would be interesting to hear what an old timer was doing with his piloting skills, other than flying the dog around.
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All lies! :sarcasm: He just does some weekend flying, he got his commercial long ago but then got into being an auto mechanic. He doesn't use the privileges of that ticket.
 
BajtheJino said:
Something tells me if he was an active commercial pilot he would not be getting a BFR.
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The force is strong with you, but he could be doing things that do not make him sit with the feds, like pulling a banner, dropping meat missiles, ag spraying or rocking the scenic tours.
 
Douglas said:
The force is strong with you
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star-wars-emperor1.jpg

Your journey to the dark side is nearly complete...
 
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