Logging flight time in a UAV

OregonTrail said:
it has to have some sort of vertical and horizontal approach system. im not saying the pilot does it but its got to have something
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Nope. Nothing like an ILS or anything (talking Pred here). There's a map display for tracking horizontal plan-view movement, but it has to be landed VMC.
 
I didn't say it could be logable as PIC airplane. ButPIC time in a UAV, just as you can have PIC time in helicopters, balloons etc. How much value it holds for say an airline job, well that is very debatable.

I would suspect that working for a UAV company as a consultant/pilot pays a lot better than working as a pilot. Just guessing though.
 
Codyjp said:
I didn't say it could be logable as PIC airplane. ButPIC time in a UAV, just as you can have PIC time in helicopters, balloons etc. How much value it holds for say an airline job, well that is very debatable.
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Agree in part. Though there aren't many UAVs with multiple-pilot crews where PIC would even factor in. One pilot is all there is.

I would suspect that working for a UAV company as a consultant/pilot pays a lot better than working as a pilot. Just guessing though.
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Your guess would be correct. Jobs as UAV pilots....with the growing technology there is and the need for them......pay pretty darn good.
 
MikeD said:
Agree in part. Though there aren't many UAVs with multiple-pilot crews where PIC would even factor in. One pilot is all there is.



Your guess would be correct. Jobs as UAV pilots....with the growing technology there is and the need for them......pay pretty darn good.
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And your coffee would never get spilled and I bet you can brows the net en route to Dirkadirkastan.

Now they just need to come up with work at home UAV pilot positions!:rotfl:
 
why doesn't someone just right their FSDO asking, instead of speculating..
 
MikeD said:
UAV time isn't worth jack squat.....except for maybe piloting other UAVs.

Let me ask you this. If I build an R/C model of a UAV, and then go fly it, can I log that time?

It's worth about the same.....
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What are you talking about? It's worth an Air Medal and a Bronze Star, all from the comfort of a stateside double wide.
 
Adler said:
why doesn't someone just right their FSDO asking, instead of speculating..
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because the answer is not important enough for me to bother to call a fsdo. plus I thought it would be more fun to bring it here and see what others thought. after all this forum would be real lame if every one with a question just went straight to an authority.
 
MikeD said:
UAV time isn't worth jack squat.....except for maybe piloting other UAVs.

Let me ask you this. If I build an R/C model of a UAV, and then go fly it, can I log that time?

It's worth about the same.....
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Agreed, it is worthless for ratings and times, and I would never log it as pic, or tt. I would track it and log it in a separate column though. Two things, one maybe someday the FAA may allow some of it to count, or there someday maybe a certificate for it. Who knows. Also, it is relevant experience. My Navigator time is technically worthless too, but it helped me get my 121 job, and has been enormously beneficial in the job.

jmho...
 
Hacker15e said:
Source?

I have heard of one Bronze Star for Merit being awarded to a UAV operator, but no BSV or DFC.
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Just a quick Google. I'm sure you'll find more if interested.

http://www.airforcetimes.com/news/2008/08/ap_remote_stress_080708/

http://www.airforcetimes.com/news/2008/08/ap_remote_stress_080708/

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0KNN/is_46/ai_n28025344/pg_6/

Originally I received an article from a retired AF friend. Even he was disgusted with the idea despite the lower standards he was accustomed to from his time in service.
 
granlistillo said:
Agreed, it is worthless for ratings and times, and I would never log it as pic, or tt. I would track it and log it in a separate column though. Two things, one maybe someday the FAA may allow some of it to count, or there someday maybe a certificate for it. Who knows. Also, it is relevant experience. My Navigator time is technically worthless too, but it helped me get my 121 job, and has been enormously beneficial in the job.

jmho...
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But even as a Nav/NFO/ECMO/RIO/BN etc....at least you're in the aircraft as a flight crewmember, so that time is very worthwhile. FAR more so than any UAV time. I agree, UAV should be logged separate from "real" aircraft time.

............you caused me to think up a question that will be in a new thread!
 
Guy said:
Just a quick Google. I'm sure you'll find more if interested.

http://www.airforcetimes.com/news/2008/08/ap_remote_stress_080708/

http://www.airforcetimes.com/news/2008/08/ap_remote_stress_080708/

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0KNN/is_46/ai_n28025344/pg_6/

Originally I received an article from a retired AF friend. Even he was disgusted with the idea despite the lower standards he was accustomed to from his time in service.
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There's nothing in there about UAV operators being awarded a DFC. There is only a paragraph in one of those links that talked about a survey of UAV operators, which said that they did not agree they should be eligible for the award:

We sought to determine whether officers believed that a UAV operator could someday be recognized with the DFC for an extraordinary combat achievement while, presumably, not being airborne and under no personal risk. Very large majorities--and notably, a far higher percentage of seniors than juniors--rejected this notion.
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So...still looking for some substantiation for your original post about UAV pilots being awarded DFCs.

With respect to the combat stress issue, I'm linking to a previous JC thread where this is discussed. I have friends who are combat vets in fighter airframes who now fly UAVs, and say that the job stresses that are discussed in those other two links are very real. Mock them if it makes you feel better, but it is happening.

http://forums.jetcareers.com/military-pilots/76225-uav-operators-suffer-war-stress.html

My post:

http://forums.jetcareers.com/1010735-post13.html
I think you guys are missing the entire point of the article.

None of those guys are saying that the stress they're facing is equal to or worse than what boots out in the field are feeling.

Read that last sentence again. Nobody wearing a USAF flight suit, and especially the guys flying UAVs via satellite from Southern Nevada think that.

What they ARE saying is that they have a different type of psychological stress that is UNIQUE to the fact that they are "at war" at work, then go home and live "normal" life for the other 4 hours of the day they're at home (and not asleep). They're saying that stress is causing them problems that are PTSD-like.

You might think that being able to go home to mom and the kids after a day of killing Taliban sounds like a pretty good deal, but from the guys I know who are doing this (killing at work, and going to soccer games on the weekend), they say it is really worse than just being deployed to the AOR (for all the reasons mentioned in the article).

And the worst part is that there's no end to the "deployment" for them. There are dudes who have been doing this 2, 3, 4 years straight of 12 hour shifts flying UAVs. The community is so over tasked and undermanned right now that they're working their asses off indefinitely. It's not like at the end of the 179 days, or year, or 18 months they get to go back home and regroup. They just keep doing the same thing until they get an assignment elsewhere.

These guys I'm talking about are my buds whom I've deployed with in my F-15 squadrons to both OEF and OIF. Several of them flew with me in no-kidding real combat during the Shock-and-Awe days of OIF in '03, jinking out of the way of AAA and SAMs getting shot at them. These are guys who actually have been there and done that before...they are not a bunch of pusses who have never really been under stress and never seen combat.

These same guys are reporting that the "dual life" they have to live in their UAV job is causing them psychological stresses that they don't know how to explain and is causing them problems in their personal lives, family lives, and relationships.

So, like it or not guys, that's the freaking textbook definition of PTSD.

Again, nobody is saying they have it equal to or harder than guys rooting around on the ground. They ARE saying that there's something going on and that some of them need help.
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poser765 said:
I tend to agree with you. But looking in the regs I can't find anything in 61.51 that says you have to actually be sitting IN the airplane to log it as PIC.
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61.51(a) tells us that pilot logbooks are where we should record 'training time and aeronautical experience'. 61.1(b)(1) tells us that Aeronautical experience means pilot time obtained in an aircraft, flight simulator, or flight training device for meeting the appropriate training and flight time requirements for an airman certificate, rating, flight review, or recency of flight experience requirements of this part. So that right there does indeed tell us that we have to be in the plane.

Furthermore, 61.51(b)(iv) says that each logbook entry should include the type and indentification of aircraft, flight simulator, or flight training device as appropriate. Nothing in there calls out UAV's specifically. They're definitely not flight training devices or flight simulators so that leaves aircraft. Aircraft, for the FAA's purposes, have tail numbers. Do UAV's have tail numbers?

But really the more important question that needs to be answered here is WTF were you doing hanging around yahoo answers?
 
Because it doesn't make sense that it would. I know FTD sim instructors who have about 4,000 hours in the simulators....they don't log any of it.
 
Hacker15e said:
Source?

I have heard of one Bronze Star for Merit being awarded to a UAV operator, but no BSV or DFC.
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Read what I wrote. I did not write DFC, I wrote Air Medal. And yes, it has been authorized although I have not kept up with who might have been awarded one.
 
Guy said:
The Air Farce gives Distinguished Flying Crosses to UAV operators and diagnoses them with PTSD for the horrible stress they endure. Following that standard, any crazy thing is possible.
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Hacker15e said:
Source?

I have heard of one Bronze Star for Merit being awarded to a UAV operator, but no BSV or DFC.
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Blackhawk said:
Read what I wrote. I did not write DFC, I wrote Air Medal. And yes, it has been authorized although I have not kept up with who might have been awarded one.
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a) He wasn't quoting you. And b), Guy DID say DFC.
 
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