Gulfstream International Responds to FAA Fine

[SeanD]

Ha, I just received a brochure in the mail from Gulfstream Training Academy. Says for $30,000 I can be at the Majors in 3 to 4 years. Definitely seems like the way to go.

Okay, not really.

It used to say one year if Im not mistaken.

 

[sopdan]

35 hours in 7 days
11 days working in a row (wow)

These are not small "woopsie" errors.

And that CEO I believe is the same one that said something along the lines of "I don't see what the big deal is" when they got slapped for putting car A/C units in the planes instead of units that were approved.

 

[derg]

There's nothing actually unusual about that, to be honest. Union reps will usually tell you to take a flight, even if you know it to be illegal, if management is directly ordering you to take it or face discipline.

If they're putting out that type of gouge in terms of flying illegal, that's bad news.

I've been to the "big brown desk" with the POI and let me assure you if you violate an FAR, willingly, even under duress, there's not squat the company will do or the union can do for you. Case in point, if you know it was a violation, flew it anyway because of pressure from the company, you've upped a 'letter of correction' into a "Willful disregard for the FARs" which will become "Careless and Wreckless" in a heartbeat.

If it's a clear and unequivocal violation of the FARs, do not fly it.

If it's a violation of the contract, under advisement from your rep, fly it and grieve it.

 

[Goonie]

If they're putting out that type of gouge in terms of flying illegal, that's bad news.

I've been to the "big brown desk" with the POI and let me assure you if you violate an FAR, willingly, even under duress, there's not squat the company will do or the union can do for you. Case in point, if you know it was a violation, flew it anyway because of pressure from the company, you've upped a 'letter of correction' into a "Willful disregard for the FARs" which will become "Careless and Wreckless" in a heartbeat.

If it's a clear and unequivocal violation of the FARs, do not fly it.

If it's a violation of the contract, under advisement from your rep, fly it and grieve it.

:yeahthat:

The FAA only sees in black and white. They are not going to even listen to your union rep. If YOU violate the FAR's then YOU are responsible.

 

[Goonie]

There's nothing actually unusual about that, to be honest. Union reps will usually tell you to take a flight, even if you know it to be illegal, if management is directly ordering you to take it or face discipline.

Huh?

The FAA is not going give a crap about your union.

 

[ZeroPapaGolf]

Do you really expect the FAA to say "oh, well, this signed letter said for you to break that FAR, I guess you're good to go"? I think not.

 

[derg]

Huh?

The FAA is not going give a crap about your union.

True.

And yes, you can talk yourself right into a violation.

If it's against the FAR's, don't touch it with a ten foot pole. The FAA is after blood and once you willfully violate an FAR, you're on your own.

"Yes, I thought it was not in accordance with the FARs, the company threatened to fire me and my ALPA duty pilot was on coffee break..."

Here's something that if you don't have an ASAP program in place at your company that you need to know.

The FAA has instituted a "Threat and Error Matrix". Which more or less looks at any reported error, weighs it against the phase of flight and dictates your minimum suspension. Now if it's "willful" which is interpreted as "careless and wreckless", the simple 30 day suspension becomes a 90 day, or 120 day at the drop of a hat.

And here's the kicker. Say the captain makes a rotten decision which violates an FAR and you, as FO, don't speak up. Guess what folks, in the 121 world, violations are issued in pairs. So if the captain screws up and you're complicit by not speaking up? Enjoy that time off because you're getting it.

I had a captain that did something a little crazy, which I will not speak about on the internet, and don't even think that I wasn't at the "big brown desk" along with the other pilot who was on break during an international trip. If Skipper's screwing up, and if you don't speak up, it's your ticket too. And when the feds pull your record to look at the "overall picture" which they do, they're looking at the first incidence which you showed up on their "radar" scope from your first medical, ALL of your checkrides, phase checks, everything. If you sneezed and didn't cover your face, the feds WILL bring it up at your hearing.

You're not there as an education experience gaining dual cross-country, if you're in a 121 cockpit, you're paid and expected to perform. Period. "Learning" is a byproduct of your presence, not the sole purpose.

 

[sopdan]

To add to what Doug said, if you willfully and/or intentionally break a reg. (like the fly now, grieve later examples given in this thread), filing an ASAP will not, and cannot, help you at all. It won't be accepted into the program.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

Guys, here's the problem:

99.9999999% of the time, if you think it's a violation of the FARs, but you have the company going on the record telling you that it's not, then you're probably the one that's wrong. Pilots constantly miscalculate their times and get all worked up about the company trying to "make them fly illegally," when the truth is that they just can't add 2 and 2 to save their lives. I've seen it time and time again. If you absolutely, unequivocally, beyond a shadow of a doubt, believe that it's illegal, and you're willing to stake your entire livelihood and career on it, then refuse the assignment and be prepared to face the consequences. But you'd better be damned sure that you're right, because you won't be getting another decent job if you have a terminated due to insubordination in your PRIA check.

 

[SpiraMirabilis]

If you get it on a recorded line, and a remark on the release I don't see why the FAA would go after you. But maybe I'm naive.

 

[derg]

It's about being a professional. If a doctor thinks a procedure isn't safe and figures "Well, the HMO demands it so I'll do it" and it's incorrect, the HMO stays in business and the doctor loses his certification.

Primarily the reason why I said that if you KNOW it's against the FAR's and you're still "forced" (allowed to be coerced, I should state) to fly it and you do, you're hosed.

Acceptance into the ASAP program isn't a foregone conclusion. It's for inadvertent violations.

If you know you're over the FAR max duty day, the company says "FLY! FLY NOW!" and you do it, you can file all the ASAPS and NASA NSRS reports you want, but it will not matter because most likely for a "willful disregard of the FAR's", you're not covered.

The POI will ask you, "So you thought it was illegal and flew it anyway because you were pressured. Well, sir, what if you were pressured to fly an airplane with a known discrepancy, the MEL said one thing, your company said something else and you flew in violation?"

First hand experience. COR's and NASA ASRS forms are not "Get Out Of Jail FREE!" cards.

 

[texas_pilot]

If you get it on a recorded line, and a remark on the release I don't see why the FAA would go after you. But maybe I'm naive.

What am I missing here? Does everybody's new cellphone somehow record conversations and aren't there legal issues about informing people they are being recorded? How can you get somebody identifying themselves on a recorded line?

 

[Firebird2XC]

What am I missing here? Does everybody's new cellphone somehow record conversations and aren't there legal issues about informing people they are being recorded? How can you get somebody identifying themselves on a recorded line?

Calls from crew scheduling, etc, are usually recorded. Denoting the time and asking to 'pull the tapes' usually is sufficient.