Full flaps

Dazzler

Dazzler

Well-Known Member
At what point in the traffic pattern do you teach your primary students to extend full flaps on landing?

"When the runway is made" is how I've heard it described sometimes, but how do you teach a student when that point is?

Others teach it as soon as you roll out on final approach.

How about factoring in wind/gusts? Do you still teach full flaps, or land with partial flaps?
 
Turning final in both the airplanes I teach in.

Some say the 172 lands better in a strong xwind with less flaps. I guess it lands faster, so you have more control authority.

DA-42 does great with full flaps in any wind (i've taken it up to about a 25 knot xwind component) though approach flaps are normal coming out of an instrument approach.
 
Dazzler said:
At what point in the traffic pattern do you teach your primary students to extend full flaps on landing?
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When turning final.

"When the runway is made" is how I've heard it described sometimes, but how do you teach a student when that point is?
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Needless disburbance of a stabilized approach, IMO. If you lose an engine, raise the flaps.

How about factoring in wind/gusts? Do you still teach full flaps, or land with partial flaps?
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Gusts are irrelevant with regard to flaps or partial flaps. Only real issue is rudder authority, which flaps will decrease at the performance limits. But even with 40 degree flaps on a C172, you can handle about 30 knots direct crosswind. I see no reason to decrease the flap setting until the wind is stronger than that. Even then, you can increase rudder authority with a faster approach or keeping a trickle of power in.

So I essentially teach full flaps on every landing, which ensures the aircraft handles the same way every time.
 
For the definition of when the runway is made, I teach my students that the runway is made when you are at the point that you can continue the approach and land safely on the runway with no power.
 
c172captain said:
For the definition of when the runway is made, I teach my students that the runway is made when you are at the point that you can continue the approach and land safely on the runway with no power.
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If you still have power in at that point, you're generally aiming too far down the runway. Unless you're aiming for a further turnoff.
 
Generally speaking, full flaps on final.

For primary student in 172, for example, if they have the plane trimmed correctly with an appropriate power setting, the first notch on downwind puts them at 80-85 kts, second notch on base for 70-75 and final notch on final for about 60-65ish, no other inputs needed, really.

That said, it depends somewhat on the aircraft and what the approach is looking like. With a DA-20 or DA-40, I teach to extend LDG flaps on final, but the way those planes glide, sometimes full flaps are necessary on base (the -20 and -40 only have three settings, including retracted). I've also flown aircraft where the first couple notches are ho-hum, but the final notch is an express elevator to the ground and, in that case, I'd teach to hold off a little on the full setting.

I suppose, to me, it's sort of like IFR Alternate filing requirements:

Always extend full flaps on final, unless...
 
Flaps?? What are flaps?? I don't have those on the Citabria. :crazy:

I guess I'm going to have to go against the norm on this one. Full flaps only on short field. By definition, flaps are used to increase the angle of descent w/o increasing airspeed - like is needed when approaching over an obstacle.

Also, it depends on the situation. I frequently flew out of a 1200' field with obstacles at the far end. The normal approach there was 20 degrees. If you had to go around, 30 degrees of flaps would put you in the trees.

If I use flaps, I try to keep it around 20 degrees unless more is necessary. I don't think there really is a one size fits all answer as to when to apply them.
 
escapepilot said:
Flaps?? What are flaps?? I don't have those on the Citabria. :crazy:

I guess I'm going to have to go against the norm on this one. Full flaps only on short field. By definition, flaps are used to increase the angle of descent w/o increasing airspeed - like is needed when approaching over an obstacle.

Also, it depends on the situation. I frequently flew out of a 1200' field with obstacles at the far end. The normal approach there was 20 degrees. If you had to go around, 30 degrees of flaps would put you in the trees.

If I use flaps, I try to keep it around 20 degrees unless more is necessary. I don't think there really is a one size fits all answer as to when to apply them.
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:yeahthat:Just because the plane has X amount of flaps, doesn't mean you you need to use them just because the lever will go that far. One of my pet peeves I guess (along with many others), to see a 172 coming in to a 9000ft runway with 40 degrees of flaps down.....WHY???? Too much drag for no good reason what so ever, going too slow, burning too much fuel, and have to run the engine at cruise power just to maintain 65kts of airspeed. And the best part, you ask them why they do it like that, and the only answer is "thats the way I was taught". :banghead:

I land Cessna's at 20 degrees unless it is a true short/soft field landing. In higher winds, 10 degrees. I think the plane just flies better that way. Look at the SOP for larger aircraft, most all of them do not land full flaps unless certain conditions exist.

Planes like Diamond/Cirrus, with only two flap settings I can somewhat understand. But a freakin Cessna? Come on.....
 
wjmiller3 said:
One of my pet peeves I guess (along with many others), to see a 172 coming in to a 9000ft runway with 40 degrees of flaps down.....WHY???? Too much drag for no good reason what so ever, going too slow, burning too much fuel, and have to run the engine at cruise power just to maintain 65kts of airspeed. And the best part, you ask them why they do it like that, and the only answer is "thats the way I was taught". :banghead:
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It's so we can make the first turn-off and enjoy a leisurely two mile taxi to the ramp.

Duh.
 
: When the runway is made.
I hate when somebody turns final, adds flaps and then needs to add power.

"Two wrongs do make a right?!?"
 
wjmiller3 said:
172 coming in to a 9000ft runway with 40 degrees of flaps down.....WHY????
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Discipline.

A guy who flies into a 9,000 ft runway has trouble landing on a 3,000 ft runway because he's adopted sloppy habits that the long runway forgives. He flies too fast, too shallow, and can't put the airplane down in a predictable place. When faced with a real short-field, he may have trouble flaring the airplane with full flaps.

If you land on every runway like it's only 1,000 ft long, then you can land almost anywhere in the country with no change in technique.
 
minitour said:
So let's make it worse by screwing with configuration when we should be doing something else?
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The very best thing you can do for yourself is to increase your glide range so that you can possibly make the runway. Raising the flaps accomplishes that.
 
wjmiller3 said:
I land Cessna's at 20 degrees unless it is a true short/soft field landing. In higher winds, 10 degrees. I think the plane just flies better that way. Look at the SOP for larger aircraft, most all of them do not land full flaps unless certain conditions exist.

Planes like Diamond/Cirrus, with only two flap settings I can somewhat understand. But a freakin Cessna? Come on.....
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Um. Gotta disagree with you on that one. The 172 lands real nice with 30 degrees.
 
tgrayson said:
The very best thing you can do for yourself is to increase your glide range so that you can possibly make the runway. Raising the flaps accomplishes that.
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...which is why you shouldn't be putting them down until you can make the runway power off, in the first place.

-mini
 
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