Hot: Air France Jet Missing (AF 447)

Re: Hot: Air France Jet Missing

I know someone already brought this up; but, seriously, how in 2009 can a modern airliner's location ever not be known in a situation like this? Like, if there already isn't, why couldn't they just put GPS tracking on all aircraft?

Feel free to tell me why this wouldn't work or whatnot, I'm just curious.
 
Re: Hot: Air France Jet Missing

What a horrible tragedy.

Edit: just found out the plane is confirmed to have crashed.
 
Re: Hot: Air France Jet Missing

Wild_Weasel said:
I know someone already brought this up; but, seriously, how in 2009 can a modern airliner's location ever not be known in a situation like this? Like, if there already isn't, why couldn't they just put GPS tracking on all aircraft?

Feel free to tell me why this wouldn't work or whatnot, I'm just curious.
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No requirement to do that so why spend the $$
 
Re: Hot: Air France Jet Missing

Wild_Weasel said:
I know someone already brought this up; but, seriously, how in 2009 can a modern airliner's location ever not be known in a situation like this? Like, if there already isn't, why couldn't they just put GPS tracking on all aircraft?
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There's a pretty decent amount of time that you're not under radar coverage when flying over the ocean... and in large swathes of South America as well.

In the US, we have great VHF communications, phenomenal radar coverage, etc etc etc. Once you leave the CONUS, it can be a whole different world, pardon the pun.

Sometimes approach is asking where you are and asking for position reports when you're shooting the ILS in Moscow and it sounds like approach and tower are talking what sounds like a coffee can.

I can tell all sorts of entertaining stories about my first flight down to Georgetown, Guyana one of these days.
 
Re: Hot: Air France Jet Missing

wheelsup said:
So you can look relatives in the eye and tell them you know where their loved ones are?
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In this case it may not make a difference, since they're likely down in Davey Jones' locker, unfortunately.
 
Re: Hot: Air France Jet Missing

Doug Taylor said:
There's a pretty decent amount of time that you're not under radar coverage when flying over the ocean... and in large swathes of South America as well.

In the US, we have great VHF communications, phenomenal radar coverage, etc etc etc. Once you leave the CONUS, it can be a whole different world, pardon the pun.

Sometimes approach is asking where you are and asking for position reports when you're shooting the ILS in Moscow and it sounds like approach and tower are talking what sounds like a coffee can.

I can tell all sorts of entertaining stories about my first flight down to Georgetown, Guyana one of these days.
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Seems like a great time right about now.:)
 
Re: Hot: Air France Jet Missing

Not to sound ghoulish, but I don't know what's worse for the victims and the relatives. Being lost at sea or what probably happened to the victims of Colgan 3407.
 
Re: Hot: Air France Jet Missing

Timeline
7:03 p.m. Brazil time/12:03 a.m. Paris time: Air France flight 447 departs Rio de Janeiro's Galeao International Airport for Paris

10:33 p.m. Brazil time/3:33 a.m. Paris time: Brazilian air traffic control in radio contact with plane. Pilot reports no problems.

10:48 p.m. Brazil Time/3:48 a.m. Paris time: Flight leaves Brazilian radar coverage, traveling normally at 35,000 feet.

11 p.m. Brazil time/4 a.m. Paris time: Flight passes through storm

11:14 p.m. Brazil time/4:14 a.m. Paris time: Plane sends an automated message indicating an electrical failure.

11:20 p.m. Brazil time/4:20 a.m. Paris time: Crew fails to make a scheduled contact with Brazilian controllers.

2:30 a.m. Brazil time/7:30 a.m. Paris time: Brazilian air force begins search operation.

SOURCE: Brazilian Air Force, Air France
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Re: Hot: Air France Jet Missing

kazoopilot said:
It should be. Unfortunately these rules are written in blood - safety changes often aren't implemented until AFTER a horrible accident.
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Depends if its worth it or not. If its cheaper in the long run to implement a safety measure and save you, they'll save you. If it's cheaper to kill you, they'll kill you, figuratively speaking.
 
Re: Hot: Air France Jet Missing

MikeD said:
Depends if its worth it or not. If its cheaper in the long run to implement a safety measure and save you, they'll save you. If it's cheaper to kill you, they'll kill you, figuratively speaking.
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Sad but true. TCAS was around for how many years until it was finally mandatory on passenger aircraft and how many mid airs?
 
Re: Hot: Air France Jet Missing

MikeD said:
Depends if its worth it or not. If its cheaper in the long run to implement a safety measure and save you, they'll save you. If it's cheaper to kill you, they'll kill you, figuratively speaking.
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This needs to change. People's lives are more important than a few dollars. Safety changes need to be implemented because it's the right thing to do, not because it saves money.
 
Re: Hot: Air France Jet Missing

kazoopilot said:
This needs to change. People's lives are more important than a few dollars. Safety changes need to be implemented because it's the right thing to do, not because it saves money.
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No argument here. Just in the real world, the almight dollar/cost will always rule. Always has, always will.
 
Re: Hot: Air France Jet Missing

kazoopilot said:
This needs to change. People's lives are more important than a few dollars. Safety changes need to be implemented because it's the right thing to do, not because it saves money.
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Well, actually, no they're not.

You see, implementing safety changes costs money. Increased costs for airlines mean increased ticket prices. And goodness knows just how well THAT goes over...
 
Re: Hot: Air France Jet Missing

Doug Taylor said:
Sad but true. TCAS was around for how many years until it was finally mandatory on passenger aircraft and how many mid airs?
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A good while it was around. We flew in the pre-TCAS and TCAS I days. I don't think it became mandatory, IIRC, until TCAS II was already around.
 
Re: Hot: Air France Jet Missing

kazoopilot said:
This needs to change. People's lives are more important than a few dollars. Safety changes need to be implemented because it's the right thing to do, not because it saves money.
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Yeah, but the general public says this, but they are certainly more than happy to book $100 air fares to fly from JFK to SAN or log onto orbitz and hit the low price selector.

People ought to think about flying like sushi. Eating sushi can kick your ass if you're not careful.

Now if you want to eat some raw fish, do you want to go to a sushi bar that is going to charge you an honest price for a honest, safe and clean bit of food, or do you want to go down to the gas station and buy the sushi piled up next to the hot dogs with "Manager's Special: Three sashimi for the price of one"?

People demand to go to the gas station and buy the 3-for-1 stuff, but get Nobu-san quality sushi.
 
Re: Hot: Air France Jet Missing

Qgar said:
Not to sound ghoulish, but I don't know what's worse for the victims and the relatives. Being lost at sea or what probably happened to the victims of Colgan 3407.
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I have to think for the relatives probably the AF incident. 228 souls are maybe lost forever at the bottom of the ocean.
 
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