91.213(d) - dealing with the Feds

S

SoCalFlyer2

Well-Known Member
I recently had a run in with the feds (first time) while they were conducting a ramp check on a flight school. My flight school does maintenance as well and I was ferrying a plane back to the customer (another school) after an annual. Of course the feds were sitting on the ramp checking out this schools other planes as my happy-go-lucky ass comes rolling up.

I park their plane as the inspectors tag team me and start asking for the usual documents which I supplied and explained I was just ferrying the aircraft over and picking up our plane to bring back. He walks over to the plane I landed in and comes back and says "this plane is unairworthy!". At this point I'm crapping in my pants thinking what the hell did I do wrong. He asks me who was PIC and what seat was I sitting in (right as I am a CFI).

The seat was sliding off the rails because a stupid little metal stop pin broke off the rail on the 172. I explained it MUST have happened when I slid the seat back (perhaps too hard) before I got out. He asked to see my licenses, medical and asked me who gave me my initial CFI (kind of odd I thought). The owner of the flight school explained to the feds how they break all the time and showed them a drawer full of stop pins to replace ones which always break. So far I have no heard anything from them.

Needless to say, I've been paranoid about every little thing on every plane I fly now. I was going to give a lesson in a Seneca one morning when we find out the DG is broke (keeps spinning). The equipment was not required and according to the 91.213(d) which I wont explain here, I placarded the DG "INOP". My student's mother owns the plane so he grabbed the books for me and I made a note in the maintenance log that the DG was not working and I "placarded instrument INOP" and signed/dated with CFI number.

A couple days later, one of the other CFI's who is also an A&P lectures me about making maintenance log entries. He told me I'm NOT an A&P, I'm not authorized to make entries and the owner could "sue me for vandalism". He told me I should never touch the books and the aircrafts value is strongly tied to the maintenance books and I just fouled it up. He told me that I should make an entry on the sqwak sheet.

The FAR seems pretty specific about making an entry in the maintenance log unless I'm misreading something. Does entering something on a sqwak sheet hold weight? I would be taking off with a broken instrument. Its not like I found out after the fact. I'm just trying to cover my butt...
 
SoCalFlyer2 said:
I'm not authorized to make entries
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Of course you are. Part 43, for instance, specifically allows you to perform preventive maintenance (§ 43.3(g)), but you're *required* to make the logbook entries that indicates that you've done so. (§ 43.5)

That said, placarding something "INOP" doesn't require a logbook entry unless the device required maintenance to deactivate it:
(ii) Deactivated and placarded "Inoperative." If deactivation of the inoperative instrument or equipment involves maintenance, it must be accomplished and recorded in accordance with part 43 of this chapter; and

​
I'm skeptical that a squawk sheet could be considered to be equivalent to a maintenance log. When a mechanic fixes a squawk, he makes a logbook entry in the real logs, as well as annotating the squawk sheet.
 
tgrayson said:
[/INDENT]I'm skeptical that a squawk sheet could be considered to be equivalent to a maintenance log. When a mechanic fixes a squawk, he makes a logbook entry in the real logs, as well as annotating the squawk sheet.
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I wouldn't think they are. In our USAF aircraft logs, we have squawk sheets. We as aircrew are required to annotate faults with the aircraft, to which maintenance can act upon them. We write what we see, that's it......they don't want us analyzing, etc, just sticking with the facts. They do their end of the work and annotate what their fix was. There are separate parts of the permanent aircraft logs where they also log the maintenance done to the plane, which only maintenance folks deal with.
 
SoCalFlyer2 said:
He walks over to the plane I landed in and comes back and says "this plane is unairworthy!". At this point I'm crapping in my pants thinking what the hell did I do wrong. He asks me who was PIC and what seat was I sitting in (right as I am a CFI).

The seat was sliding off the rails because a stupid little metal stop pin broke off the rail on the 172. I explained it MUST have happened when I slid the seat back (perhaps too hard) before I got out. He asked to see my licenses, medical and asked me who gave me my initial CFI (kind of odd I thought). The owner of the flight school explained to the feds how they break all the time and showed them a drawer full of stop pins to replace ones which always break. So far I have no heard anything from them.
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You as a pilot are responsible for making sure that the required inspections have been done, and conducting a good preflight. Nothing more, nothing less. FSDO inspectors shouldn't come after you simply because they found a single defect somewhere on the aircraft that was outside of a normal preflight inspection.

I placarded the DG "INOP". My student's mother owns the plane so he grabbed the books for me and I made a note in the maintenance log that the DG was not working and I "placarded instrument INOP" and signed/dated with CFI number.
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When documenting manitance you should use your CPL #, not your CFI.

He told me I'm NOT an A&P, I'm not authorized to make entries and the owner could "sue me for vandalism". He told me I should never touch the books and the aircrafts value is strongly tied to the maintenance books and I just fouled it up. He told me that I should make an entry on the sqwak sheet.

The FAR seems pretty specific about making an entry in the maintenance log unless I'm misreading something. Does entering something on a sqwak sheet hold weight? I would be taking off with a broken instrument.
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§ 43.3 allows the aircraft owner to perform preventitive maintance, and requires them to document it. It does NOT allow another pilot to do so.

However you can write poetry in the MX logs if you wish. Nothing will happen to the value of the airplane. OTOH, if the logs are lost entirely, the general rule is that about 10% of the value is lost with them.

Filling out a "sqwak sheet" for items found AFTER a flight is mearly a way to comunicate with he mechanics. It carries no weight offically.
 
SoCalFlyer2 said:
A couple days later, one of the other CFI's who is also an A&P lectures me about making maintenance log entries. He told me I'm NOT an A&P, I'm not authorized to make entries and the owner could "sue me for vandalism". He told me I should never touch the books and the aircrafts value is strongly tied to the maintenance books and I just fouled it up. He told me that I should make an entry on the sqwak sheet.
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The lecturing CFI / mechanic is the one who needs a serious lecture (education).

It is not at all uncommon to find airplanes that have gone for years without any notation in the maintenance log except the annual inspection. It is a sure sign that the owner did not follow the correct maintenance procedures.
 
USMCmech said:
§ 43.3 allows the aircraft owner to perform preventitive maintance, and requires them to document it. It does NOT allow another pilot to do so.
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§ 43.3 Persons authorized to perform maintenance, preventive maintenance, rebuilding, and alterations.
[...]
(g) Except for holders of a sport pilot certificate, the holder of a pilot certificate issued under part 61 may perform preventive maintenance on any aircraft owned or operated by that pilot
 
tgrayson said:
§ 43.3 Persons authorized to perform maintenance, preventive maintenance, rebuilding, and alterations.
[...]
(g) Except for holders of a sport pilot certificate, the holder of a pilot certificate issued under part 61 may perform preventive maintenance on any aircraft owned or operated by that pilot
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Generally in Pt 43 "operated by" reffers to someone leasing an aircraft, not a pilot "operating the controlls". Midlife can probably provide some better references.

However, ask 4 different FSDOs and you'll get 5 different answers.
 
121 must be different :D.... though we follow part 91 in parts....

We have an MEL and there are (O) and (M) procedures.... the (O) procedures are essentially written up for what the pilots do when somethings broken.... a different way to run a check or the like. However, we have defined procedures on what to do when something is broken.

#1 - discover the broken crap
#2 - look on the DMI sheet to see if it's already defered
#3 - if not defered, call it in to MX, write it up in the AML, and most likely get it defered... put some text on the DMI and get a pretty orage sticker for somewhere in the cockpit....

yes yes oversimple but hey, we can write stuff up, why shouldn't you???
 
I can say as an airplane owner I would NOT want Joe pilot writing anything in the actual aircraft maintenance logs.
 
USMCmech said:
Generally in Pt 43 "operated by" reffers to someone leasing an aircraft, not a pilot "operating the controlls". Midlife can probably provide some better references.

However, ask 4 different FSDOs and you'll get 5 different answers.
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1.1 Operate, with respect to aircraft, means use, cause to use or authorize to use aircraft . . . with or without the right of legal control (as owner, lessee, or otherwise).

And sue for writing in his book AHAHAHAHAHAH I would have laughed right in that guys face talk about ridiculous it sounds something like, "if you write in my book I'm telling mommy" to me.
 
Did you have an MEL? If not, you cannot INOP the DG. It is not one of the 32 items allowed under preventitive Mx.

Also, isn't there an AD reference to the seats on the Cessnas? The pins and rails in particular?
 
juskl said:
Did you have an MEL? If not, you cannot INOP the DG. It is not one of the 32 items allowed under preventitive Mx.

Also, isn't there an AD reference to the seats on the Cessnas? The pins and rails in particular?
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Hugh??? Since when can a DG not be inop?? Go to 91.213, and unless there is anything in any of the references listed in 91.213 requring a DG it most certainly can be defered. There are many airplanes out there that do not even have a DG- mine included.
 
Blackhawk said:
Hugh??? Since when can a DG not be inop?? Go to 91.213, and unless there is anything in any of the references listed in 91.213 requring a DG it most certainly can be defered. There are many airplanes out there that do not even have a DG- mine included.
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:yeahthat:
Now, if you had been required to do maintenance to deactivate the DG (for example, disconnecting and capping the vacuum hose leading to it), you would need an A&P's signature. Just placarding it inop (and probably covering it) wouldn't technically be maintenance, to my understanding.
 
I'm still waiting for the "FARs for dummies" to come out. ;)

I would bet every pilot would own a copy of it.
 
juskl said:
Did you have an MEL? If not, you cannot INOP the DG. It is not one of the 32 items allowed under preventitive Mx.

Also, isn't there an AD reference to the seats on the Cessnas? The pins and rails in particular?
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91.205 (d) (9) Requires this instrument for IFR flight rules. So the INOP may have been for IFR operations or just for the purpose of being diligent and making sure you know what instruments you have that are INOP. Besides when is the last time you flew with a VFR pilot that flew to points on the ground and didn't fly to that little orange direction bug? ;)
 
juskl said:
Did you have an MEL? If not, you cannot INOP the DG. It is not one of the 32 items allowed under preventitive Mx.

Also, isn't there an AD reference to the seats on the Cessnas? The pins and rails in particular?
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yes, there is a seat rail inspection due. I see the AD due date in the book everytime I fly it and we comply with it. I believe it says seat rail inspection. Not sure if it has to do with the actual pin or not.
 
juskl said:
Did you have an MEL? If not, you cannot INOP the DG. It is not one of the 32 items allowed under preventitive Mx.

Also, isn't there an AD reference to the seats on the Cessnas? The pins and rails in particular?
Click to expand...
preventative mx has nothing to do with INOP equipment. preventative mx is like changing the oil on your car, you do it to prevent future wear and tear or failure.
 
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