RAH to operate E-190s for Midwest

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OldTownPilot said:
Right, the fundamental problem that allowed all this to happen is the lack of scope at midwest, not the RAH pilots. Or is that the ALPA blinders talking again? Would you be singing a different tune is it was an ALPA regional that is operating the 190's?


And sick calls worked real well for the APA guys, right? Now what LEGAL thing can either union do now? Thats right, NOTHING.
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Still thinking about the Peace Corps?
 
OldTownPilot said:
Yes put all the stuff in and I have an interview at some point coming up, but really confused on how this is related to anything here.

Or if it's a totally random tangent, I'm cool with that.
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Somewhat random tangent, somewhat.

Good luck with the interview. The PC is an enjoyable experience and one hell of a great way to improve our image globally.
 
In all seriousness, we need more pilots across this industry to grow some balls out there or else we are all screwed.

Not saying the RAH pilots are a bunch of pansies, but there is a line in the sand and we as a collective group of pilots must uphold that line. RAH pilots are stuck in the middle of this, however that excuse goes so far. If you want to make it better, then volunteer for your pilot group, put yourself out there in the crossfire for the betterment of your pilot group and industry.

For the record RAH pilots are welcomed with open arms on my jumpseat.
 
Seggy said:
In all seriousness, we need more pilots across this industry to grow some balls out there or else we are all screwed.

Not saying the RAH pilots are a bunch of pansies, but there is a line in the sand and we as a collective group of pilots must uphold that line. RAH pilots are stuck in the middle of this, however that excuse goes so far. If you want to make it better, then volunteer for your pilot group, put yourself out there in the crossfire for the betterment of your pilot group and industry.

For the record RAH pilots are welcomed with open arms on my jumpseat.
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Mark,

I think that you and the other folks that organzied your group did an outstanding job. I hope you all get the contract to end the stepping stone mentality, or at least a big step in that direction.

I hope the CHQ group steps up, like you guys did, and gets a contract that is a huge step in the direction that it needs to go as far as improving pay and schedules.

You'll learn, as we all do, there will be tradeoffs. Some seem smart at the time and work out poorly, and some just seem dumb, but work out great for the long run. There is no working around that.

We're all aware of the IBT's suckiness. However, during my tenure at CHQ, inspite of the nearly endless list of stuff they suck at, they got three things right.

1) (Full disclaimer - this was just before my time) They exchanged Junior Manning for crew meals in a CBA negotiation. Yup. Management decided the monetary cost of a Crew Meal was so high, that they relinquished Junior Manning for it... I found my days being mine were awesome.

2) They pretty much invented the scope of the holding company in the current CBA...which of course was expensive, thus the stuff most of ya'll belly ache about was traded off to protect the jobs.

3) They told USAir MEC to shove it with the first J4J "proposal" that they shoved down the ALPA USAir Express' throats. If it had been accepted, they would have let people come in off the street to my company and take not only Captain seats (which ultimately DID happen), they would have taken our seniority too....

So, while I think there are many faults with the IBT the above 3 things are HUGE QoL issues that got preserved or improved during my tenure at CHQ.
 
Seggy said:
In all seriousness, we need more pilots across this industry to grow some balls out there or else we are all screwed.
...
but there is a line in the sand and we as a collective group of pilots must uphold that line. RAH pilots are stuck in the middle of this, however that excuse goes so far. If you want to make it better, then volunteer for your pilot group, put yourself out there in the crossfire for the betterment of your pilot group and industry.
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A-effig-MEN.

Seriously now. We're all just living on the fruits of the labors of those who came before us who fought- who genuinely risked what they had to better their world.

Us so-called 'regional' types, we're all the future of airline business, and we've all been duped into being satisfied with low-hanging fruit.

What the heck is wrong with us? Since when were people with the drive to be pilots such SHEEP?

Risk is inherent in everything we do, and yet we turn our eyes downward and shuffle away while greedy paper-pushers steal our lunch money.

Pathetic.
 
Seggy said:
In all seriousness, we need more pilots across this industry to grow some balls out there or else we are all screwed.

Not saying the RAH pilots are a bunch of pansies, but there is a line in the sand and we as a collective group of pilots must uphold that line. RAH pilots are stuck in the middle of this, however that excuse goes so far. If you want to make it better, then volunteer for your pilot group, put yourself out there in the crossfire for the betterment of your pilot group and industry.

For the record RAH pilots are welcomed with open arms on my jumpseat.
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Do you want to come over to PSA and help out? Just got off the union website right now and am shocked a member of our MEC is trying to put all the blame on Midwest management and not worried about the plane being flown at a regional. I just dont get it to be honest. Its sickening me right now as I type this.
 
I ask the question: Ethics aside, did anything happen here that was illegal? Is this "takeover" of Midwest Airlines by Republic EMB-190s within all legal limits of the contracts of each carrier? If so, then is Republic Airways pilots the ones who are at fault? Or should blame lie with the pilots of Midwest Airlines, and the lack of a scope agreement that would adequately protect their jobs?

I'm not trying to say what happened here is acceptable. What I am trying to do is explain that this "replacement" was completely legal. In all honesty, there is nothing the Republic pilots can do legally to stop it. They are pretty much put in between a rock and a hard place here. Fly the planes, and get the wrath of your fellow aviators, or not fly the planes, and possibly lose your jobs. Why should the pilots of Republic be the martyrs here for a scope agreement that was inadequate?

What we really need to learn from this is the benefits of a strong scope agreement, not only for mainline carriers, but for regional airlines as well. Let me let you on to a little fact that you may or may not realize: Management is very smart. They know business better than most of us pilots would ever hope to, which is why they are in the position they are in. We often gripe and complain about the decisions they make, typically because those decisions are in the best interest of the shareholders and their own wallets, and not labor. However, if there is a loophole that would allow something like this to happen, management will typically find it.

It is therefore our job as labor to close these loopholes, so we can protect our jobs. I personally feel that the majority of the problems associated with this downturn and the growth of the regionals falls back on the major airline scope agreements. If that flying would have been secured by mainline, we wouldn't be sitting here having this discussion today. Hindsight is 20/20.

We can go on and on about things we need to do to raise pay at the regional level, but it is going to be a long, tough fight. Things will continue to slide before they get better. That is one of the reasons I'm paying such close attention to the TA vote at Southwest right now. One of their pilots biggest concerns is the lack of a solid scope agreement. I for one hope it does not pass, and something more solid can get put in place. It's important to their pilots to protect what they have.

I really hope we can stop the childish bickering between pilot groups, and focus on what really needs to be done here. Let us learn from the mistakes that have been made, and fight for the corrective measures necessary so it does not happen again. Let's not start playing the "blame game," because the only thing that will do is further separate us all. That gives management much more power to whipsaw us with promises of growth and stability.
 
FlyChicaga said:
What we really need to learn from this is the benefits of a strong scope agreement, not only for mainline carriers, but for regional airlines as well.......

It is therefore our job as labor to close these loopholes, so we can protect our jobs. I personally feel that the majority of the problems associated with this downturn and the growth of the regionals falls back on the major airline scope agreements. If that flying would have been secured by mainline, we wouldn't be sitting here having this discussion today. Hindsight is 20/20.

.
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Mainline wasn't getting much support for scope in the last few years, as evidenced by RJDC and many who thought "evil, greedy mainline pilots" were stealing Regionals flying and their potential for growth by instilling scope clauses. Now, that has come back to bite. Hindsight is 20/20 yes, but I don't think this whole situation was a total unseen, out-of-the-blue surprise as some want to make it sound like.......but maybe more of a "I told you so". As RJ-200s evolved into 700s then 900s, the writing was indeed on the wall that the trend would only continue.
 
FlyChicaga said:
I ask the question: Ethics aside, did anything happen here that was illegal? Is this "takeover" of Midwest Airlines by Republic EMB-190s within all legal limits of the contracts of each carrier? If so, then is Republic Airways pilots the ones who are at fault? Or should blame lie with the pilots of Midwest Airlines, and the lack of a scope agreement that would adequately protect their jobs?

I'm not trying to say what happened here is acceptable. What I am trying to do is explain that this "replacement" was completely legal. In all honesty, there is nothing the Republic pilots can do legally to stop it. They are pretty much put in between a rock and a hard place here. Fly the planes, and get the wrath of your fellow aviators, or not fly the planes, and possibly lose your jobs. Why should the pilots of Republic be the martyrs here for a scope agreement that was inadequate?

What we really need to learn from this is the benefits of a strong scope agreement, not only for mainline carriers, but for regional airlines as well. Let me let you on to a little fact that you may or may not realize: Management is very smart. They know business better than most of us pilots would ever hope to, which is why they are in the position they are in. We often gripe and complain about the decisions they make, typically because those decisions are in the best interest of the shareholders and their own wallets, and not labor. However, if there is a loophole that would allow something like this to happen, management will typically find it.

It is therefore our job as labor to close these loopholes, so we can protect our jobs. I personally feel that the majority of the problems associated with this downturn and the growth of the regionals falls back on the major airline scope agreements. If that flying would have been secured by mainline, we wouldn't be sitting here having this discussion today. Hindsight is 20/20.

We can go on and on about things we need to do to raise pay at the regional level, but it is going to be a long, tough fight. Things will continue to slide before they get better. That is one of the reasons I'm paying such close attention to the TA vote at Southwest right now. One of their pilots biggest concerns is the lack of a solid scope agreement. I for one hope it does not pass, and something more solid can get put in place. It's important to their pilots to protect what they have.

I really hope we can stop the childish bickering between pilot groups, and focus on what really needs to be done here. Let us learn from the mistakes that have been made, and fight for the corrective measures necessary so it does not happen again. Let's not start playing the "blame game," because the only thing that will do is further separate us all. That gives management much more power to whipsaw us with promises of growth and stability.
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:yeahthat:

Im not gonna touch this flying but I feel for the guys who will eventually be forced to. As much as Velo has his mind made up that we are all in our crew rooms celebrating these new planes it simply isn't true. Everyone is upset and the two guys I know on furlough at RAH say they aren't accepting a recall if they get one. Right now the IBT needs to step up and give this pilot group some direction. Hopefully the MidEx guys can find a way to strike so no one has to touch any of this flying. Until then Im not expecting anyone to throw their job away because Midwest forgot to add a scope clause.
 
FlyChicaga said:
What I am trying to do is explain that this "replacement" was completely legal. In all honesty, there is nothing the Republic pilots can do legally to stop it.
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Bingo. I see the "Republic pilots should do something about it" tirades, but I have yet to see a legal suggestion as to what they could do. Sick out? Not legal. Ask American. Refuse to fly the planes? Good luck getting that one to hold up in court. Now, you can make the argument that if EVERY pilot refused to fly them, then the company would have no choice but to park them. However, the problem remains as to how you get that accomplished. The only way to get that going is for the union to organize some sort of job action. Not legal.

The best thing the Republic pilots can do is fly their contract to the letter under the section that covers adding new fleet types while negotiating a MAJOR level contract rather than a regional level contract. Settling for less than major level pay on the airplanes at this point is killing your own career. Once the cat's out of the bag, every other airline is gonna try to follow suit.
 
If you want to "do something" legal, one should think about some things:

1) Why are some exterior placards on Embraer products made with red writing and some with black? I wonder if RAH keeps those with red writing at outstations?

2) What REALLY affects the company? My guess would be for someone to learn the difference between what are termed "controllable" and "uncontrollable" delays and how does that affect the company's compensation from a code-share partner?

3) There are some things that can be traced via a CMC, FADEC or other automated piece of equipment that can disprove a bogus write up. However they can be used to back up repeated writeups, and even the EJet CMC can tell you how many times that occurred. I'll bet the FSDO has a short temper on repeat writeups, especially since maintenance control has to fill out additional paperwork after a certain number of repeats of the same write up.

4) Knowing how to write up a discrepancy can be a big deal. Make sure a very detailed and precise write up is entered.

5) I wonder how a customer would feel if their fuel costs went up, with an entire fleet flying 2000' below your filed altitude. Obviously, your altitude would be limited due to traffic or rides.

Just some thoughts for ANY group who might want to send a message.
 
Exactly right, Polar. Just adhere to all FAA regs and Company rules and policies. Don't fly fatigues or sick.

I don't expect any RAH pilots to actually do this, though. Me thinks the lady doth protest TOO much.
 
I have a feel Republic will go into negotiations for a 100 seat rate and eventually decide to fly the plane with 99 seats.
 
The Midwest thing annoys me...sure it's only 2 aircraft at a relatively small carrier (Midwest). Why wasn't any scope included in their last contract? Was it because all their regional flying at the time was done in house by Skyway? Then came along Skywest which should have been seen as a HUGE threat. Non-union regional with big RJs...

I guess at that point they couldn't negotiate anything in their contract as it wasn't up to for renewal?

I'm not sure how other carriers lost scope, maybe someone could go one-by-one among the majors.
Delta? Was it their last bankruptcy? USAir as well right? United? Northwest? Continental just hasn't had a bankruptcy that has coincided with the current lineup of 70-100 seat RJs.

The scenario that worries me is what happens when the next airline goes into Bankruptcy? Let's say United is the next to enter. What's to stop Republic or Skywest from coming on by offering money and CRJ900/1000 or EMB190s to be flown? The judge would say here is money being put on the table, couldn't re-write that part of the UAL/Pilot contract?
 
On the ALPA resentment at Midex...

Over the years, Midex and Skyway pilots paid a bunch of money to ALPA for representation and support. BOTH contracts were negotiated with the support of and reviewed by the ALPA "pros from Dover." BOTH contracts were not worth the paper they were written on when the chips were down. BOTH gave management loopholes that lead to the demise of the airlines. I know that the MECs fought for the finer points, scheduling, pay, etc., but these errors seemed to be technicalities that should have been caught by the experienced staff at ALPA HQ.

Um...how can Midex still be a 121 carrier (and keep the certificate) if it doesn't have any airplanes? They'd be a travel agency. Something will change before the last 717 leaves for Mexico. Somebody is working on adding the 190s.
 
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