Colgan hearings are complete and utter <..>

That's up to the professional crew to say they are fatigued, and unable to take a flight.

As for the training, that is something we can regulate.

Are we talking real world or how it should be? I ask because x sick calls, x calls for fatigue and you will be challenged. Should it be that way? No but again, are we just whiffing theory or reality.

Training IS regulated. An APPROVED program is regulated. The POI has to sign off on it. The POI, the senior and the check airmen are all operating according to APPROVED and REGULATED policy/procedures.
 
it is not a matter of 'their heads' but the FAA grants the authority to the check airmen and the senior. I would be very surprised if any retain their check authority or their CFI IF they had one.

The "their heads" was a metaphor.

The bold portion:

We can only hope.
 
Thats exactly right. At the same time guys will talk about how they can't, they'll be harrased or lose trips or some other excuse. If this be the case where is the union in all this? If this has been a problem since for such a long, long time why has this never been a major issue to be tackled?


No job is worth piling into buffalo. Period. I don't care how much of a stepping stone it is to the next gig.
 
No job is worth piling into buffalo. Period. I don't care how much of a stepping stone it is to the next gig.

Now here you go again. . .

While it may not be worth it to you, it very well may be worth it to someone else.

Much like it might not be worth it for someone to relocate to Alaska to fly single engine pistons around in the freezing cold, it very well may be worth it to someone else.
 
Now here you go again. . .

While it may not be worth it to you, it very well may be worth it to someone else.

Much like it might not be worth it for someone to relocate to Alaska to fly single engine pistons around in the freezing cold, it very well may be worth it to someone else.

That's not what I'm saying, not a job in the world is worth piling into the ground.
 
No job is worth piling into buffalo. Period. I don't care how much of a stepping stone it is to the next gig.

One word.... standups.

DAY DH C FLTNO DPS-ARS DEPL ARRL BLKT SEGT GRNT TBLK TDHD TCRD TPAY TDUTY LAYOVER PAGE NO. 1
xx xxxx ATL-TYS 2245 2344 59 54 556 xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx 000 -- -- -- -- -- -- --
xx xxxx TYS-ATL 0540 0640 100 100 159 0 151 345 1 855 -- -- -- -- -- -- --
D-END: 0655L -------------------------------------- -- --
TOTALS BLOCK 159 DHD 0 CREDIT 345 T.A.F.B. 855 (LANDINGS 2)

========================================================================================================================================


10 points for what 5:56 means... luckily we're 10 minutes away from the airport here.... unlike other cities.
 
Time on the ground? :D


Yep... but that's not fair you're familiar :D

I just found one WAY worse than a TYS highspeed:

========================================================================================================================================
xx xxxx ATL-TLH 2251 2359 108 108 531 xxxxxxxxx 000 -- -- -- -- -- -- --
xx xxxx TLH-ATL 0530 0638 108 108 216 0 129 345 1 847 -- -- -- -- -- -- --
D-END: 0653L -------------------------------------- -- --
TOTALS BLOCK 216 DHD 0 CREDIT 345 T.A.F.B. 847 (LANDINGS 2)​
========================================================================================================================================

 
If y'all are staying at the same hotel we do when we come in from MEM that is pure torture!

Yep same crappy hotel with the taxi every night. I've done that highspeed down to 5 hours of "ground time".... and they wanted me to waive the 5 hours...... gawd.:banghead:
 
Yep same crappy hotel with the taxi every night. I've done that highspeed down to 5 hours of "ground time".... and they wanted me to waive the 5 hours...... gawd.:banghead:


Oh, that sucks!

I hate that highspeed out of MEM just because of the van ride and the hotel.
 
Well - no duh? Thanks for the clarification.

I don't know any professional or hobby pilot who wants to pile a plane into the ground.


But that's the point, as professionals we measure our ability by previous events. However, as we fly more and more, we find that we've learned to fly fatigued (trust me, when I was a 1900 FO we flew fatigued) and we think it's ok. After awhile we just learn to deal, and frankly, if people would man up, and use their PIC authority to tell their boss that they "ain't goin" then fatigue wouldn't be a problem. You get 50 crewmembers on reduced rest to say, "sorry, we are unable to safely command the aircraft under these conditions," and the problem of the "pilot pushing." will go away.

What it really is is a culture among aviators. We're typically goal oriented type A personalities, and as a result we see things like fatigue as hurdles we need to jump over to complete the mission, or get the job done etc. Don't just ask me, read flight discipline, or for that matter, any book on human factors or pilot psychology, and you'll see why people bust mins, why people push duty times, and maybe you'll understand a little about why the industry is a jacked up as it is.
 
Learned to fly fatigued?

You admit you were, on a regular basis, flying fatigued in a 1900 at a part 121 operation?

You think it's ok?

Hope nobody important finds your post.
 
But that's the point, as professionals we measure our ability by previous events. However, as we fly more and more, we find that we've learned to fly fatigued (trust me, when I was a 1900 FO we flew fatigued) and we think it's ok.


Didn't you just say no job was worth "piling" into BUF? Yet now you're saying flying fatigued is okay. Which is it? I don't think any crew that crashes with fatigue being a contributing factor thought they were gonna crash. The times I've called in fatigued it was normally b/c I didn't think I really was until I had a microsleep issue or did something stupid. Fatigue is a lot like being drunk. Most people that are insist they're okay.
 
Learned to fly fatigued?

You admit you were, on a regular basis, flying fatigued in a 1900 at a part 121 operation?

You think it's ok?

Hope nobody important finds your post.

When you're scheduled to fly at 4am in the morning, and you've only had exactly 10 hrs of rest since your last 14hr duty day, yeah, you get fatigued. Then do that for 18 days straight, and see how chipper you are. Even if you go home and go right to bed, you still don't get enough real rest. That's one of many reasons I left my old company. The problem is that you learn to fly fatigued when you're faced with those conditions, and after awhile you think its ok. That's what's going on here too. You're commuting cross country, then jumping into the airplane and rocketing off. Not good. Be a man, and say no.

Didn't you just say no job was worth "piling" into BUF? Yet now you're saying flying fatigued is okay. Which is it? I don't think any crew that crashes with fatigue being a contributing factor thought they were gonna crash. The times I've called in fatigued it was normally b/c I didn't think I really was until I had a microsleep issue or did something stupid. Fatigue is a lot like being drunk. Most people that are insist they're okay.

It's not ok, is what I'm saying, but when you work for a company that puts you into a postion to be fatigued consistently, you begin to get acustomed to it, and at that point you should consider saying something, or update your resume.
 
When you're scheduled to fly at 4am in the morning, and you've only had exactly 10 hrs of rest since your last 14hr duty day, yeah, you get fatigued. Then do that for 18 days straight, and see how chipper you are. Even if you go home and go right to bed, you still don't get enough real rest. That's one of many reasons I left my old company. The problem is that you learn to fly fatigued when you're faced with those conditions, and after awhile you think its ok. That's what's going on here too. You're commuting cross country, then jumping into the airplane and rocketing off. Not good. Be a man, and say no.



It's not ok, is what I'm saying, but when you work for a company that puts you into a postion to be fatigued consistently, you begin to get acustomed to it, and at that point you should consider saying something, or update your resume.
you know, I wish my world was as black and white as yours . . . I really would love to sit in judgement of others so easily, but I guess I just don't have the resume yet.
 
you know, I wish my world was as black and white as yours . . . I really would love to sit in judgement of others so easily, but I guess I just don't have the resume yet.


That's what this whole thread is, an exercise in monday morning quarter backing. I don't exactly know why you're defending the crew so much, and no, my world isn't black and white, it's filled with shades of gray, but I will stick my neck out on this one and say pilot error. Primarily because of the circumstances surrounding the accident.

Here's what we know:

The crew was probably fatigued (see CA sleeping in crew lounge, and FO's commute, then texting during when she should have been sleeping)

The crew was relatively inexperienced. Qualified, but relatively inexperienced.

The crew had recently been trained in recovery from Tailplane icing stalls (someone else on the forum said that IIRC).

The training program did not adequately cover stall recovery techniques.

The FDR shows that the airplane experienced a stick shaker, then proper action wasn't taken to alleviate the stall and recover.


Frankly, having read the CVR transcript, and listened to the audio file of their last contact with tower, combined with all of the talk about how "last winter I would never have been qualified for this..." etc etc. I'm not entirely suprised. Yeah, it sucks, yeah it's not good. But in my opinion, they screwed up and 48 innocent people died.

What did we learn from this? The public doesn't really care about working rules, and pilot pay, they care about safety when they climb on to do the colgan. We also learned that even big airplanes can stall, and that icing is still a factor. Wow, I thought we knew that already.
 
Yep... but that's not fair you're familiar :D

I just found one WAY worse than a TYS highspeed:


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So you fly an hour, have a five hour and some change layover and then fly another hour, and off for the day. That sounds like a gravy run. Or it sounds like freight. This is a regular schedule for that lifestyle.
 
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