stuckingfk
Well-Known Member
With all the talk going on about improving rest requirements for all pilots, I'd like to hear what you would do to improve rest requirements.
Rest Requirements
- Thread starter stuckingfk
- Start date
jtrain609
Antisocial Monster
Bingo.
I don't think show times and end times should be allowed to be moved more than a few hours per day. Make your trips all AM shows, or all PM shows, but not PM, AM, PM, AM (I.E. a commutable four day)
Clocks
Well-Known Member
That was always my biggest issue. Sorry, I can't fall asleep at 8pm to get my 8 hours of beauty rest at the drop of a hat.
surreal1221
Well-Known Member
Perhaps statements of fatigue will be taken a bit more seriously now.
Nick
Well-Known Member
My List
10 hours from when you walk into the hotel to when you walk back onto the van upon checking out.
Maximum scheduled duty period of 12 hours. Extendable to 14 hours for delays.
"Standup/continuous duty/highspeed/illegal" overnights shall not be permitted.
30-in-7 rule changed to 40-in-7 but on duty period in a rolling period of 7 days shall not exceed 60 hours.
Those changes, though not drastic, would enhance safety very much.
10 hours from when you walk into the hotel to when you walk back onto the van upon checking out.
Maximum scheduled duty period of 12 hours. Extendable to 14 hours for delays.
"Standup/continuous duty/highspeed/illegal" overnights shall not be permitted.
30-in-7 rule changed to 40-in-7 but on duty period in a rolling period of 7 days shall not exceed 60 hours.
Those changes, though not drastic, would enhance safety very much.
surreal1221
Well-Known Member
Penalties for corporations?
Of COURSE not.
Penalties for the "worker". . .a dime a dozen.
Gotta love Amerika.
Baronman
Well-Known Member
I believe these are all good suggestions. I don't think the airlines will self-impose stricter rest requirements, it will cost them more money. On the other hand if regulation makes it necessary, then it will effect all airlines across the board, taking away any disadvantage.
On the other hand, aside from shorter duty days, would any of these suggestions have really helped the CA and FO on 3407? They were both coming from days off. I know it's not the popular thing to say among commuters, but don't commuters bear the responsibility of showing up for work with adequate rest? If that meant the CA got a hotel room the night prior, and the FO commuted out the day prior to spend the night in EWR so be it. If rest is truly an issue, then you can't say "Give us shorter days, longer overnights, etc" yet not address the issue (which really corresponds to this accident) of showing up from hard commutes fatigued.
Theoretically I could commute in from Singapore to EWR, having flown 16+ hours and then commence a 15 hour duty day. Perfectly legal. And most Singapore commuters would be totally in favor of this. Put the same guy in a situation where he's approaching his max duty limit and I'm sure he's screaming bloody hell. Of course the former benefits him so he adapts, the latter not so much.
On the other hand, aside from shorter duty days, would any of these suggestions have really helped the CA and FO on 3407? They were both coming from days off. I know it's not the popular thing to say among commuters, but don't commuters bear the responsibility of showing up for work with adequate rest? If that meant the CA got a hotel room the night prior, and the FO commuted out the day prior to spend the night in EWR so be it. If rest is truly an issue, then you can't say "Give us shorter days, longer overnights, etc" yet not address the issue (which really corresponds to this accident) of showing up from hard commutes fatigued.
Theoretically I could commute in from Singapore to EWR, having flown 16+ hours and then commence a 15 hour duty day. Perfectly legal. And most Singapore commuters would be totally in favor of this. Put the same guy in a situation where he's approaching his max duty limit and I'm sure he's screaming bloody hell. Of course the former benefits him so he adapts, the latter not so much.
SpiraMirabilis
Possible Subversive
Whatever rest youre scheduled is behind the door of your hotel, would be a good start with me. So 9 hours rest (behind the door) normally, or 8 hours rest (behind the door) as reduced.
I can see the following happen soon - all commuter are reauired to report to your base 12 to 24 prior designated report time.
Agreed. Too much is being focused on the commute, and not enough on the ridiculous typical 14 hour days.
Scheduled duty time should not exceed 10 hours, period. We're not machines, and need to be focused and concentrated on what we are doing, in other words rested.
I know I get tired after 8 hours already, it's complete BS to be able to schedule a crew for up to 14 hours in 1 day, and for that to be standard operating procedure, with up to 16 hours being the legal FAA limit. That's only 8 hours from you being at work flying an airplane for 24 hours. Unbelievable.
And all of this on top of the ridiculous wages we earn for what we do.
400A
New Member
If I was king....
Max 12 hours of duty in a 24 hour period.
All rest periods will be 12 hours, regardless of duty length
Any duty that exceeds 12 hours (situations outside the operators control) will be followed by 36 hours of rest (keeps you on the same clock)
No flight time limits within the 12 hours of duty
No more than 4 hours of single or cumulative periods of time between flight duties while on duty (do away with productivity sits)
One CALENDER DAY free from duty in a 7 CALENDAR DAY period (this will not include the 36 hours of rest for duty periods that exceed 12 hours)
Duty defined as any period of time the employee is required to be available to the operator (on call) or any period of time the employee is engaged in any activity for the operator.
Rest defined as the period of time 1 hour after the employee is released from duty to 1 hour prior to the employee being required to report for duty.
This all being domestic of course (do away with 121 supplemental). The folks with more international experience would have to chime in for Flag operations.
Needs some tweaking, like I said, if I was king, this would be my ideal way.
Max 12 hours of duty in a 24 hour period.
All rest periods will be 12 hours, regardless of duty length
Any duty that exceeds 12 hours (situations outside the operators control) will be followed by 36 hours of rest (keeps you on the same clock)
No flight time limits within the 12 hours of duty
No more than 4 hours of single or cumulative periods of time between flight duties while on duty (do away with productivity sits)
One CALENDER DAY free from duty in a 7 CALENDAR DAY period (this will not include the 36 hours of rest for duty periods that exceed 12 hours)
Duty defined as any period of time the employee is required to be available to the operator (on call) or any period of time the employee is engaged in any activity for the operator.
Rest defined as the period of time 1 hour after the employee is released from duty to 1 hour prior to the employee being required to report for duty.
This all being domestic of course (do away with 121 supplemental). The folks with more international experience would have to chime in for Flag operations.
Needs some tweaking, like I said, if I was king, this would be my ideal way.
kellwolf
Piece of Trash
Re: If I was king....
I'd LOVE to see max duty days down to 12, but you're gonna have to put a limit on how many you can have in X amount of time. Otherwise, there really won't be a whole lot of changes at Pinnacle. I think a normal day for me is 12 hours of duty. If I have an 8-10 hour duty day, I feel like I won the lottery.
I'd LOVE to see max duty days down to 12, but you're gonna have to put a limit on how many you can have in X amount of time. Otherwise, there really won't be a whole lot of changes at Pinnacle. I think a normal day for me is 12 hours of duty. If I have an 8-10 hour duty day, I feel like I won the lottery.
ready2fly
Well-Known Member
The problem is, the FAR's, as they are written now, are open to interpretation as to deprive pilots of 8 hours of rest behind the door. Example:
Sec. 121.471 - Flight time limitations and rest requirements: All flight crewmembers.
(a) No certificate holder conducting domestic operations may schedule any flight crewmember and no flight crewmember may accept an assignment for flight time in scheduled air transportation or in other commercial flying if that crewmember's total flight time in all commercial flying will exceed --
(1) 1,000 hours in any calendar year;
(2) 100 hours in any calendar month;
(3) 30 hours in any 7 consecutive days;
(4) 8 hours between required rest periods.
(b) Except as provided in paragraph (c) of this section, no certificate holder conducting domestic operations may schedule a flight crewmember and no flight crewmember may accept an assignment for flight time during the 24 consecutive hours preceding the scheduled completion of any flight segment without a scheduled rest period during that 24 hours of at least the following:
(1) 9 consecutive hours of rest for less than 8 hours of scheduled flight time.
(2) 10 consecutive hours of rest for 8 or more but less than 9 hours of scheduled flight time.
(3) 11 consecutive hours of rest for 9 or more hours of scheduled flight time.
(c) A certificate holder may schedule a flight crewmember for less than the rest required in paragraph (b) of this section or may reduce a scheduled rest under the following conditions:
(1) A rest required under paragraph (b)(1) of this section may be scheduled for or reduced to a minimum of 8 hours if the flight crewmember is given a rest period of at least 10 hours that must begin no later than 24 hours after the commencement of the reduced rest period.
(2) A rest required under paragraph (b)(2) of this section may be scheduled for or reduced to a minimum of 8 hours if the flight crewmember is given a rest period of at least 11 hours that must begin no later than 24 hours after the commencement of the reduced rest period.
(3) A rest required under paragraph (b)(3) of this section may be scheduled for or reduced to a minimum of 9 hours if the flight crewmember is given a rest period of at least 12 hours that must begin no later than 24 hours after the commencement of the reduced rest period.
(4) No certificate holder may assign, nor may any flight crewmember perform any flight time with the certificate holder unless the flight crewmember has had at least the minimum rest required under this paragraph.
Many regional carriers liberally interpret those rules to our detriment as crewmembers.
Many, many times, we end up with an average of 6 hours of rest behind the door.
The FAR's, as stated above, can be easily amended by stating as follows:
(1) 9 consecutive hours of rest [BEHIND THE DOOR/AT A HOTEL] for less than 8 hours of scheduled flight time.
(2) 10 consecutive hours of rest [BEHIND THE DOOR/AT A HOTEL] for 8 or more but less than 9 hours of scheduled flight time. (3) 11 consecutive hours of rest [BEHIND THE DOOR/AT A HOTEL] for 9 or more hours of scheduled flight time.
AND
(1) A rest required under paragraph (b)(1) of this section may be scheduled for or reduced to a minimum of 8 hours if the flight crewmember is given a rest period of at least 10 hours [BEHIND THE DOOR/AT A HOTEL]that must begin no later than 24 hours after the commencement of the reduced rest period.
(2) A rest required under paragraph (b)(2) of this section may be scheduled for or reduced to a minimum of 8 hours if the flight crewmember is given a rest period of at least 11 hours [BEHIND THE DOOR/AT A HOTEL]that must begin no later than 24 hours after the commencement of the reduced rest period. (3) A rest required under paragraph (b)(3) of this section may be scheduled for or reduced to a minimum of 9 hours if the flight crewmember is given a rest period of at least 12 hours [BEHIND THE DOOR/AT A HOTEL]that must begin no later than 24 hours after the commencement of the reduced rest period.
Sec. 121.471 - Flight time limitations and rest requirements: All flight crewmembers.
(a) No certificate holder conducting domestic operations may schedule any flight crewmember and no flight crewmember may accept an assignment for flight time in scheduled air transportation or in other commercial flying if that crewmember's total flight time in all commercial flying will exceed --
(1) 1,000 hours in any calendar year;
(2) 100 hours in any calendar month;
(3) 30 hours in any 7 consecutive days;
(4) 8 hours between required rest periods.
(b) Except as provided in paragraph (c) of this section, no certificate holder conducting domestic operations may schedule a flight crewmember and no flight crewmember may accept an assignment for flight time during the 24 consecutive hours preceding the scheduled completion of any flight segment without a scheduled rest period during that 24 hours of at least the following:
(1) 9 consecutive hours of rest for less than 8 hours of scheduled flight time.
(2) 10 consecutive hours of rest for 8 or more but less than 9 hours of scheduled flight time.
(3) 11 consecutive hours of rest for 9 or more hours of scheduled flight time.
(c) A certificate holder may schedule a flight crewmember for less than the rest required in paragraph (b) of this section or may reduce a scheduled rest under the following conditions:
(1) A rest required under paragraph (b)(1) of this section may be scheduled for or reduced to a minimum of 8 hours if the flight crewmember is given a rest period of at least 10 hours that must begin no later than 24 hours after the commencement of the reduced rest period.
(2) A rest required under paragraph (b)(2) of this section may be scheduled for or reduced to a minimum of 8 hours if the flight crewmember is given a rest period of at least 11 hours that must begin no later than 24 hours after the commencement of the reduced rest period.
(3) A rest required under paragraph (b)(3) of this section may be scheduled for or reduced to a minimum of 9 hours if the flight crewmember is given a rest period of at least 12 hours that must begin no later than 24 hours after the commencement of the reduced rest period.
(4) No certificate holder may assign, nor may any flight crewmember perform any flight time with the certificate holder unless the flight crewmember has had at least the minimum rest required under this paragraph.
Many regional carriers liberally interpret those rules to our detriment as crewmembers.
Many, many times, we end up with an average of 6 hours of rest behind the door.
The FAR's, as stated above, can be easily amended by stating as follows:
(1) 9 consecutive hours of rest [BEHIND THE DOOR/AT A HOTEL] for less than 8 hours of scheduled flight time.
(2) 10 consecutive hours of rest [BEHIND THE DOOR/AT A HOTEL] for 8 or more but less than 9 hours of scheduled flight time. (3) 11 consecutive hours of rest [BEHIND THE DOOR/AT A HOTEL] for 9 or more hours of scheduled flight time.
AND
(1) A rest required under paragraph (b)(1) of this section may be scheduled for or reduced to a minimum of 8 hours if the flight crewmember is given a rest period of at least 10 hours [BEHIND THE DOOR/AT A HOTEL]that must begin no later than 24 hours after the commencement of the reduced rest period.
(2) A rest required under paragraph (b)(2) of this section may be scheduled for or reduced to a minimum of 8 hours if the flight crewmember is given a rest period of at least 11 hours [BEHIND THE DOOR/AT A HOTEL]that must begin no later than 24 hours after the commencement of the reduced rest period. (3) A rest required under paragraph (b)(3) of this section may be scheduled for or reduced to a minimum of 9 hours if the flight crewmember is given a rest period of at least 12 hours [BEHIND THE DOOR/AT A HOTEL]that must begin no later than 24 hours after the commencement of the reduced rest period.
And then oftentimes, the company "throw you a bone" by saying 15 minutes after block-in you're released from duty, but you spend at least 10 minutes putting the aircraft to bed and another 15 to 20 before you're even in the hotel van. Another 5 minutes for check-in and that bone gets pretty dry!